Faith, Confidence and Integrity

[Sandra Dodd]

When I go for philosophical discussons, I like to go all the way. :-)

One of the rarely-discussed issues with unschooling as it is shared and learned is where to go for information and how to weigh who knows what.

"There are no experts," I always heard, but what I took that to mean is there's no such thing as a degree in unschooling. No one has a master's or PhD in it.

Years and years into it, though, I hear variations on that assertion that go more like "No one knows more about unschooling than anyone else," and someone assured a group of people that the only experts on unschooling were John Holt (an always childless long-dead guy) and Pat Farenga (NICE guy, plays piano, I like him; but he has three kids all of whom have gone to school at least for a while, for reasons unknown and untold and not really any of my business, unless I want to decide for myself or advise others whether I consider him "an expert").

What I myself like when deciding whose advice to take is how thoughtful and open and honest the people giving the advice are. I like to know what their background and experience is, and whether their families are happy. I like people whose writing is entertaining and I like people who are willing to answer questions.

I like people who have spent a lot of their own volunteer time helping other unschoolers. And I know LOTS of such people, many of them in person, and it's wonderful. I've really enjoyed seeing their kids grow up, some up close and some at a distance. I LOVE that the internet lets us share photos, and that I can see other people's kids and their writing and their artwork. I like seeing photos of other unschoolers' houses and yards and all.

Sometimes a new unschooler has clarity and the ability to communicate things in clear ways to others. Sometimes someone who's been doing it for years is lacking credibility for some reason or combination of reasons, or maybe they just can't clearly verbalize what they know (and words are our main tool here, even when people can get together in person or trade photo sites).

Somehow each person decides which music to like, which movies, books, friends, and advisors. I made waffles this morning with two different recipes laid out on the counter. As with any real inquiry or research, I think people need more than one source!

Maybe it goes right back to "make the better choice," which can only be done when you have considered two or more options.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-So I do think there are experts , You may just get a different name depending on the experiences of who you ask.-=-

This statement causes some agitation in me, so I know it must be important, but I don't know which way to go in my head with it.

Maybe it still isn't about experts. Maybe you know who you trust to ask for advice. And your trusted advisor recommends a book or a resource or introduces you to someone they think can further your journey/learning/inquiry. Part of what makes you trust your advisor/buddy/mentor/whatever is that they haven't done anything to destroy your trust.

Somewhere in here there's something about faith and something about trust.

MAYBE (first pass maybe) it's that those who don't have the interpersonal intelligence to distinguish between experience and snake oil would prefer not to even have to try, nor to admit there are other people who CAN distinguish. So they want to know who the experts are so they can just knock on the door with the biggest, shiniest nameplate.

I honestly don't remember who this was, so if anyone does remember, I don't need to know. But someone years ago offered to include me, for a fee, in a book of conference speakers. She would then sell this book to conference organizers, from which they could choose catalog-like which speakers would be good. I declined.

I prefer to speak at conferences to which I've been invited because attendees have indicated they will come to see me, or for which the organizer has chosen me because she has read my stuff or heard me speak. I know some people who do self-promote and apply to speak at conferences all over the place, or identify themselves as conference speakers (sometimes with unwarranted glory attached). It seems a little oogy to me.

[Sandra Dodd]

Laura's response came out without being next to what she was quoting, but it was Ren, down below somewhere, who had written

We are our own best experts if we are willing to truly examine our ideas and beliefs and be willing to change. Someone shared a quote the other day....don't know who it belongs to; "I have lots of ideas but no beliefs" is the idea...can't share it word for word.

(Or maybe it will, in a while, sort itself into the right place. If so, never mind me. I'm still figuring out how this forum does what it does. It's not like any I've used before. I like it, and someday when I've used it longer, I'm sure I'll be an *expert!*)

[Sandra Dodd]

I followed a quote back to its source and found this quote:

"There is no higher form of learning than teaching. You can learn something for a test, but then you forget it. Here, they had to become experts on a subject, and the information will stick with them a lot longer." High-Schoolers Teach and Learn at Science Fest

Is it possible that to be "expert" one has to both do the thing and be able to explain it clearly?

But there are expert plumbers and cooks and quiltmakers and mechanics who maybe can do it better than others in their fields, but wouldn't be able to explain it. But if they can't even answer simple questions, are they really experts? (It's not a good word, maybe, but what words are better for those conditions?)

[laura bowman]

thanks sandra!!! it does follow her comment, it just got pushed to the next page so it isn't right under it anymore.

you know i've been thinking while reading all these posts about 'experts' and all i can come up with that i can directly, personally relate to is the idea of 'professional' or 'real' artists. someone said once they hoped to always be an amatuer artist because they would always be learning and growing. it's all just a title. what matters is where a person is coming from. if they think they are done learning because they are an expert, well then they are fooling themselves. and if someone thinks they are going to learn all they need to know from said expert, they are fooling themselves too. i don't think anyone is ever an expert at any given thing. there is always something new to learn about everything...even history (oh gosh, especially history...LOL). but someone might have so much knowledge that they are the logical person to get advice from. that would make them an expert in that moment to that person seeking advice. that's what it would mean to me anyway. title or no title, i'd go to who i knew had the goods.

titles can sometimes help if you are career minded and having a title can sometimes help get you where you want to go. my husband is a chef. he has had no formal schooling as a chef, yet he is one. sometimes not having that official title/piece of paper makes it harder for him to get where he wants to go but once he has the opportunity to prove himself he is accepted as a 'chef'...often knowing more than those who have a degree because he has the experience, the expertise, that they do not.

i'm a mom, i'm a wife, i'm an artist. i have lots of titles i guess. none of which have expert in front of them. but i've got a lot of good ideas =). let's share IDEAS. see what we come up with. that's what works for me.

[Ren]

~~Maybe that's the deal. If you need someone for a particular purpose, you find someone with that particular qualification.~~

Exactly!

Thanks for reminding me about the quote La! I often remember phrases or quotes but danged if I can remember who said it or whom they were referencing.:) I agree, that movie has many, many quotable phrases.

I remember reading some pages from a book by some unschooling "expert" a few years ago. She even used the title "doctor" though she has no formal schooling whatsoever. Her writing was garbled and non-sensical. Yet she likes to promote herself as some guru type. That kind of thing disgusts me. I have a lot more trust in people who simply live the life and share their experiences.

Over time, you build a reputation for what you actually know and do! No need for titles or "expert" status. I know exactly who to ask when I have a question about medieval food or customs ;), I know who to ask when there is something about sculpture at stake or a song I can't remember, I know who to ask because some people in my life have proven themselves over time and with sharing their lives and "expertise" as it naturally comes up. Not because they had something to prove, or money to make or fame to build.:)

Some people want to bypass real living and real experiences and get to "expert" status. That's just more status seeking though. It isn't helpful to anyone. I hope that when people come to me for information it is because I have shared my life, my failures, my experiences enough that they feel I am someone worth talking to. Not for any other reason.

Substance. That's what this is really about.

[Meredith]

This reminds me of an explanation I heard, once upon a time, of the army method of "see one, do one, teach one". Some people learn best by watching (or listening) others by getting their hands dirty, others by turning around and explaining or showing someone else how to do it. I see something on message boards, too. There are the lurkers and the askers and the answerers.

Its not a firm distinction, by any means, but its there. I'm one of the "answerers" in unschooling groups and its definately part of how I learn. I just can't ask those complicated questions people like Heather throw out! But in thinking about how to answer them I learn more about my own parenting, I remind myself of things I need to know, and even solve some of my own problems. I try to be upfront about that - most especially when I've had a flurry of posts offlist telling my they appreciate my writing. I don't think of myself as some kind of "expert" and don't want to set myself up as one, if I can avoid it.

I definately have my own trusted resources in the online unschooling community, but I think of them as "trusted resources" rather than experts. Its nice to see so many of y'all here at RUN!

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-because he has the experience, the expertise, that they do not.
-=-

Now you've done it. You've reminded me it's French.

expert (adj.)
c.1374, from L. expertus, pp. of experiri "to try, test" (see experience). The n. sense of "person wise through experience" existed 15c., reappeared 1825. Expertise (1868) is from Fr. expertise "expert appraisal, expert's report." etymonline

expertise
1. great skill or knowledge in a particular field or hobby
The scientist has expertise in cold fusion. wiktionary

Maybe those who unschool the way someone else tells them to, without wanting to participate in analysis of how and why, can't be an expert because they haven't tested and tried (per the first etymological bit above). Maybe they can be a practitioner but not an expert. Experts maybe need to know what other people have done as well as what they've done. (Maybe not.)

I have a friend who said you're an expert when you need to make your own tools. When the existing tools don't cover what you want to do and you know that you need something past the boundary of what can be bought at the woodworking shop or the garden shop, and you create your own particular tools, maybe that's another aspect of expertise.

When I was young my major interest was traditional ballads. At first I thought every book, article and recording knew more than I did because it existed in some physical way and my thoughts were swirly and excited and I was taking in more and more ballads to learn and compare.

At some point I knew I would never learn every version of every ballad, so I slowed down on that learning frenzy, but I also noticed about that same year or so that when I was reading what other people said about ballads sometimes I would look at the copyright date of the book and think, "Well fine, because that's before Bronson" or "It is SO found in the U.S.; it's in the Niles book" or something. Was I "an expert"? Depends what the question was. To people who knew more than I did, I was past being just a student and I was a resource. I got three hours of grad credit for finding cool stuff for one of the American Studies professors. I used to visit some of the English literature classes (word got around) because I knew and could sing and tell more about all the ballads listed in the literature survey they were using in those days.

What I was was someone who LOVED ballads and could talk about them.

Sometimes people come to the unschooling discussions and they don't know why people would want to talk about it so much. They just want to know the least little bit they need to know to go and do it. They will not become experts. They're unlikely to even become practitioners, because in a way everyone who makes unschooling work needs to become an expert.

[laura bowman]

wow, okay you've hit on something there...for me anyway.

Sometimes people come to the unschooling discussions and they don't know why people would want to talk about it so much. They just want to know the least little bit they need to know to go and do it. They will not become experts. They're unlikely to even become practitioners, because in a way everyone who makes unschooling work needs to become an expert.>>

this is EXACTLY how i feel about parenting. i had an idea in the beginning of how i wanted to parent and i went in search of all ways to get better at my ideal. to fill my toolbox (hell, i had to get a whole new frikken tool box). i am dumbfounded by people with little to no interest in becoming better and better everyday at being a parent. they are not interested in becoming experts, they just want a few tricks to have up their sleeves to keep everything in their control. i know i am not an expert yet, but i feel i get closer and closer every day. every time i GET something and it clicks in place. i want to talk about it more than most people want to listen (even when they've asked for it!!) i believe that is what led me to unschooling. it fit my ideals of parenting, and had less to do with my ideals of homeschooling. in the last 2 or 3 years i've come to a place where this desire for expertise in both areas has merged more. and i can see more and more now how they are inseparable.

thank you for that little bit. i think i can say confidently that i am becoming an expert at this parenting thing =)...and on my way there i'm getting pretty darn good at this unschooling thing too.

[laura bowman]

ooh, you've reminded me of a quote..."those who can't DO, teach." i've heard it this way too... "those who can, do. those who can't, teach."

but maybe if they're an expert...they can do both...hmmm. i don't think the quote is true for all people. i had some art professors in college that were damn good artists. but for their own reasons they chose to pursue teacher over professional artist. i knew few that were both.

[Sandra Dodd]

I thought about that quote yesterday too. It's a put-down of teachers, generally. What it doesn't acknowledge is that not all can teach. There are some non-teachers who are certified and employed as teachers. There are some great teachers who never have had a student (that they knew of ).

There is an art to teaching--to inspiring and explaining and being aware enough of subtle clues to know whether the other person is even listening to you, or whether he's confused or enthusiastic or holding in a questions he's hestitant to ask.

[laura bowman]

i don't like the quote either. i hear it a lot when people talk about artists. it's always been a sore spot for me. my husband is an awesome teacher. AND doer. he has taught so many young chefs things they never learned all their years in culinary school. which he never attended. it is an art to be able to explain and inspire, to help others come to understand what they want to know. and choosing to teach is not to be put-down. i wasn't agreeing with the quote, just using it as an example of the ideas you had expressed, as i was replying to your comments...
Is it possible that to be "expert" one has to both do the thing and be able to explain it clearly?>>
but it fell beneath another one.

[Sandra Dodd]

There was a great bit in the first episode (last week) of this season's Desperate Housewives. Bree is publishing a cookbook and had some recipes in there that she didn't actually know how to make. Her catering partner got back at her in a very interesting way. :-) It was a skit on integrity and humility and honesty.

I know there's that prejudice about "do or teach" with music teachers, too. But one guy playing regularly in a bar might not be doing as much for music and for humanity as a teacher who really inspires hundreds of kids to explore and perform music. Robert Felix was my music teacher for five years, and I learned a TON. He also played congas with a salsa band and drums with a jazz band, and later became a born-again charismatic Catholic and ran music for a church, but in addition to "being a professional" he was a good teacher and I was glad to be around him when he was young and his energy was huge. Chorus, girls' ensemble, marching band and concert band, all with Robert Felix in Espanola.

As to expertise, he said something profound that has never left me and that fits into the idea of "expertise." He said no one should ever claim to be a musician who only played a single instrument. That stuck with me and I generalized it to other fields too. If one plays piano well, he can say "pianist" without anyone balking, but I've known LOTS of musicians, and they can pick up an instrument, and then pick up a different instrument, and maybe sing, and probably harmonize. I've known painters, and then I've known ARTISTS. I've known embroiderers, and then I've known needleworkers, and so on. There is a field of knowledge beyond a single skill.