disapproval of daddy-daughter play style

[Rebecca Allen]

Please help me shake my judgment.

Matthew and Quinn often play chase games where he is going to "get" her, and she screams, "No!" and he still tackles her. She giggles. Lately she is playing that way a lot on her own having something is try to get her, and she needs to be saved or rescued.

I appreciate that they have lots of loud and physically active play, since that play doesn't come naturally to me. Sometimes I find it inappropriate though, like when I'm trying on clothes and I can hear them from across the store. I think we should be modeling appropriate behavior in public, whether we are in a thrift store or a posh department store (not that we frequent the latter ). So that's one judgment.

I also have a lot of judgment about little girls saying "no", especially regarding their bodies, and being ignored and about Quinn playing a victim role. I know this is my own stuff coming up and has a lot to do with my training and background in Social Work.

I would like to shake my "shoulds" and appreciate the joy in their play. Any ideas for helping me tease this out or any similar experiences to share?

[Kathleen Gehrke]

Hi Rebecca, I think kids work out and learn so much in thier play. I often have to remember it is my gender role education that leaves me predisposed to any thoughts about how someone should be. Including fighting against those roles.

Maybe ask them and say if you say no how do you know if someone really means it? My daughter plays out elaborate social games with her dolls. Games I am certain that she should not yet be aware of but somehow she is working something out.

As far as public behavior i also try to encourage my kids to be respectful of others when they are in public. I think common courtesy is just a great philosophy.

Kathleen

[Andy Cronin]

Hi Rebecca,

I thought I would share a couple thoughts on these topics. As a Dad I find that getting over my own "shoulds" is pretty challenging sometimes. When it comes to behavior in public, I think what might help is explaing exactly why a particular behavior is or isn't ok, rather just saying "because it's polite." I have a hard time remembering to do that sometimes. That combined w/ modeling the behavior will probably have a good impact.

As to the playing, I love to wrestle and chase our boys around. I try to remember to stop when they say so. What might work is to ask your husband to set up situations where your daughter gets to say NO, and he says "Ok, I'll stop, because I can tell that you really mean NO." It's almost roleplaying, and it doesn't have to be strictly about chasing. It could be asking for a bite of their snack, or simple game. Anything that lets them say yes/no and have the answer acknowledged and respected helps.

Just a few thoughts..:)

~Andy

[Sandra Dodd]

My mom had been raped by her brother when she was young, and then he died of a fever not long after. She didn't tell me that until I was in my 30's.

What she DID tell me was a lot of minor little nonsense that didn't make sense, and have a lot of little weird arbitrary rules for us to follow that she thought magically would keep us safe.

When I read what you were writing, it reminded me of my mom. Sorry. :-)
If she's playing, and he's playing, and it's "boogey-man" play and she's not actually afraid, then your response is the only really dangerous thing in the equation.

-=- Sometimes I find it inappropriate though, like when I'm trying on clothes and I can hear them from across the store. -=-

If it's a game they'll play in public it really seems even more something not to worry about. If it was a private, secret game, then I'd think you' might have something to worry about.

"Be more like me" is one of the worst mistakes moms make.

[Julie B]

Mitri and Joe have started to play tickle games like this. When they did, all the judgments about tickling that I have read on unschooling lists in years past flooded my brain. I heard Dmitri saying, "No!" and squealing and continuing to play with great joy. Then I heard him say much later, "That's enough, Papa." "No" turned out to be a genuine part of the game (and a genuine part of other games we play--explained in the "Playing with Rules" discussion), and Dmitri was fully capable of handling the situation.

Anytime I start to worry myself into thinking I need to tell other people what to do, I take a good long while to mull that over and poke fun at myself. I learned to do that by having some completely unnecessary anxious discussions with Joe in the early days. Fortunately, he was unbelievably patient and let me figure that out on my own--great modeling!

[Rebecca Allen]

I do have lots of abuse stories in my head clouding the picture. I don't worry that their play is in any way abusive, but I do worry about the message that it's okay for someone to ignore your "no". It is my issue though. I will work on shaking that fear.

~~"Be more like me" is one of the worst mistakes moms make.~~
No kidding! Thanks for the reminder.

[Rebecca Allen]

~~Anytime I start to worry myself into thinking I need to tell other people what to do, I take a good long while to mull that over and poke fun at myself.~~

That's why I'm bringing this here. Sometimes I would like to discuss my thoughts with Matthew, but he often reacts defensively. That's my heads up that maybe I'm not so neutrally discussing a situation.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts about letting go of my "shoulds".

[Tiffany]

I had some of these same issues with the way my husband and daughter play.
What a lot of it came down to for me was taking the time to try to objectively watch them play a few times. Once I did I realized that, at least with them, my daughter turns things around and "gets" daddy just as often as he's getting her. There are times that she'll say "no" or "stop" and he'll stop until she indicates that she wants to keep playing, but not every time. I realized that he is much better at figuring out when is a good time to stop because she said so; he seems to figure out which times she means it or needs a break and which times she's just saying no as part of the game.

Also, I asked myself if it would bother me so much if it was a dad/son instead of a dad/daughter. That's when I realized that it was more my problem than what was actually going on. I've been able to quiet the voice in my head by focusing on the fact that she's having fun, and she obviously does know that she can stop the game any time she wants. If something really does scare her daddy is the one she wants, so she obviously trusts him to take care of her.

[Melissa]

Playing "No" is really a pretty normal developmental stage, and it seems to me that experimenting with having that ignored is just as healthy as experimenting to have it heard, does that make sense? She may be playing the victim, because that's how people learn how NOT to be a victim. Feeling those feelings of being unempowered is as important as feeling empowered. I don't know what your social work training says, but with seven kids, I've seen them all go through those stages. Sometimes a parent needs to step in, most of the time not.

As for play in public, that's definitely being socialized. You've been socialized with that old victorian "children should be seen and not heard". In actuality, it doesn't hurt anyone. Period. I was going to add an exception, but it doesn't hurt anyone. People can choose to be offended, but what kind of person is offended by someone's joy? Someone who is lacking in their own! If they are knocking over clothes racks, or bumping into people, that's different. But I don't think that's happening, is it?

I know it's hard. I started parenting with a whole slew of these recordings in my head. I've had to let go of a lot of them, and many of the people here are helping.

[Kelly Nishan]

I remember playing wrestle games with my dad and sister and it was always great fun. One of us did end up getting hurt now and again but it didn't stop me from wanting to play the next time. My daughter didn't have that kind of play growing up with her dad not around. Even though I've raised my daughter without a dad involved I'm a big advocate of letting dad be dad. It's a different dynamic there. Dad is usually more comfortable letting kids take those physical risks than mom is. My best friend will always call me to talk her down when she's freaking out that her hubby took their son on the motorcycle or shooting guns or whatever crazy thing he thinks up. The same goes for you being embarassed by the play in public. She's not running around unsupervised, she's with her dad. It's cool.

[Rebecca Allen]

So I talked with Matthew tonight about playing beyond "no" and how he knows when she really means it. He reminded me how strong willed Quinn is and that she would absolutely refuse to play along if she didn't want to play. I'm not sure why I have been afraid that she will lose that.

[Rebecca Allen]

Yes, it helps me to think about it as experimenting.
No physically disturbing people or things in stores, so it's definitely not hurting anyone.
Yes, people here are helping! :)

[Trisha Cronin]

I think it's totally normal for a four-year-old not to be able to read someone else's clues. They just don't have the experience to make that distinction. My older son Deacon, 4, does this all the time to Evan, 2. He thinks that if he wants to roughhouse, then Evan does to -- or at least SHOULD want to. Whenever he's ignoring Evan's desires, I just move him away and say, "When Evan says that (or makes that noise, or whatever), that means he's done." Evan has actually picked up on things that I say when I'm done roughhousing, and he'll say to Deacon "I don't want to do that right now."

I'm wondering if some sort of code word would work well, like Julie's son Dimitri saying "That's enough." That way the 'no' could be in fun, and they could say "stop" or something when they're really done.

Trisha