Failure

[Sandra Dodd]

I found a quote I thought would be worth bringing to new unschoolers:

"Isn't it scary that many school-age children associate learning with fear of failure..."

It's from an article by a mom in Australia and it's here: http://knol.google.com/k/danielle-neale/natural-learning/2uowrjkg1y... Her page there is fine, but that one line struck me and stuck with me.

Not to get into school a lot, just that one point: School *creates* failures. It must do so. If some kids don't fail, then how can others "succeed"? If some kids don't "get bad grades" then "good grades" are worth nothing.

So if you're still wondering whether school might have something your kids need, put that on the list of things your kids do NOT need.

With unschooling is there still the potential for failure? Failure to do what? In a rich, supportive, optimistic environment, a child cannot fail to learn. There's a possibility that parents will fail to provide a rich, supportive, optimistic environment, but if you're reading this, you're surrounded by people who can help you do that!!

Just in case you're afraid of failure, here's a checklist of things to avoid:
How to Screw Up Unschooling, to which two dozen experienced parents contributed.

You can do this! Choose smiles over frowns and optimism over pessimism and watch your lives blossom.

[EL]

"It's from an article by a mom in Australia"
------ and ------
"If you're going to tell stories outside your own personal experience..."

I'm sorry. I hadn't realized that you were in Australia.

Unschooling isn't something someone invented like the Suzuki violin method or the lamaze childbirth, it is the state we find ourselves in when we remove the conditioning of schooling. It exists as an abstract only in comparison to the imposition of schooling. What's left when all traces of the schooling mindset are removed is the real world.

So to say we are suppressing or prohibiting discussing schooling or the world at large and confining ourselves to just discussing unschooling is to say we are confining ourselves to the discussion of nothing.

Moreover, dismissing points made because they wander from one's personal view of unschooling, because they reference schooling or the wide world or do not pass the muster of personal experience, can appear to be an attempt to suppress views one does not like or with which one disagrees.

So thanks for the gratuitously asserted view that all unschooling discussions must adhere to the above criteria, to which I equally gratuitously decline.

----------------------------------------
"Children at school DO fail. "

Children now days only fail at school when they (and/or their parents) decline to submit to the conditioning of schooling, and good for them! Said children may or may not have the academic skills in question, it's really beside the point. No child who willingly goes along with the program is any longer in danger of failing in an academic sense.

[Sandra Dodd]

I cited my source.

It's from an article by a mom in Australia and it's here: http://knol.google.com/k/danielle-neale/natural-learning/2uowrjkg1y...

You came back to be insulting, but didn't come back to cite your sources.

[EL]

"You came back to be insulting, but didn't come back to cite your sources."

OK. I'll bite.

"Children at school DO fail."
"Teachers are required to give bad grades whether they want to or not"
"many little boys are retained in first grade"
"It's skewed toward girls in the early years"
Etc.

Where are the sources for this information so we can check it out for ourselves?

The fact of the source for the article by the woman from Australia is meaningless. You are simply forwarding someone's opinion for discussion. It would be the same beginning point for a discussion whether you cited it, plagiarized it, or just made it up.

Be consistent. If everything we are to say must be either from our own experience or else backed up by references, stick to that, else just don't use it as a way to quieten comments with which you don't agree.

As far as being insulting, the condescension of telling another unschooler what is or is not appropriate for a conversation is the very epitome of insult. Don't have the expectation of it being treated otherwise.

So stick strictly to your own experience and cite a reference for everything else you have to say, or drop that condescending requirement for everyone else.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-So stick strictly to your own experience and cite a reference for everything else you have to say, or drop that condescending requirement for everyone else.-=-

I was a teacher and I know many others who were teachers, and there are requirements to turn in grades and show a curve. I do know one who worked at a private academy until last year, and she as told that as much as those parents pay they expect all their kids to get A's or B's. That's an exception. I could give you her name in case you wanted to check, but you aren't even using your own name, so I won't. She's a historian and came to an unschooling conference so some others here have met her.

-=-As far as being insulting, the condescension of telling another unschooler what is or is not appropriate for a conversation...-=-

I don't know whether you're an unschooler or not. I'm the one who started the thread, so that's why I hoped to keep it clean and true and sensible and useful. It's not a "requirement," it was a request.

-=-Be consistent.-=-

I have consistently used my name and my children's names and shared our family's experiences in ways that others can check up on.

What is your name? What are your children's names and how old are they?
If you're unwilling to share that, your contributions will not be as valuable as those who are being openly honest.

There are places online where rants about the school system are appreciated, but it seems to me unschooling discussions go better when they're positive about what can be done at home today, now, in peaceful and gentle ways.

[EL]

"What is your name? What are your children's names and how old are they?
If you're unwilling to share that, your contributions will not be as valuable as those who are being openly honest."

I'm not a self-promoter. My children's names are immaterial. What I have to say is more valuable because it only depends on its own merit and not who I am or what I have to say about myself.

"I was a teacher and I know many others who were teachers"

That's a cited reference? I didn't know that's were the bar was placed. I can handle references like that.

"There are places online where rants about the school system are appreciated, but it seems to me unschooling discussions go better when they're positive about what can be done at home today, now, in peaceful and gentle ways."

I disagree. The schooling mindset and the indoctrination of schooling runs so deep in our society, it seems to me highly unprofitable to try to discuss unschooling with referencing and contrasting it with schooling.

There are places online, too, where rants about the ID of contributors is appreciated. I wouldn't expect to find that attitude among unschoolers though.

[JennyStar]

"The hard thing is when they want other people and I just can't find ways to make that happen."

I totally can relate to that! Often the one thing that Chamille wants is the one thing I can't easily get her, like-minded friends.

Even when we were at the unschooling conference with all those awesome teens, she's on the fringe. I wish I could magically bring some kids into her sphere, tailor made for her. She likes almost all people, but is really selective about who she wants in the inner circle. Sometimes, I'm her favorite companion which is flattering, but not necessarily fullfilling for her.

I can also relate to that feeling of failure and lack and redirecting my thoughts to find what IS filling and successful in our lives. I've been going through that right now, and realized last night that it had a lot to do with the weather.

It was soooo hot here for about a week, that it was stifling, like you didn't want to move because it was so uncomfortable. We watched a lot of movies and tv in our dark, trying to keep it cool without an air conditioner, house, then it started storming with thunder and lightening and has now been raining for 3 days. So, we are still at home, but it feels oppressive because of the grey clouds.

It was simply a matter of making that connection of why I, and Chamille, were feeling that way, that I was able to DO something about it. Chamille and I went out to a sock store that we'd never been to and it was sooooo awesome. Here's the link for their online store if anyone is interested in finding amazingness http://www.sockdreams.com

She really needed new socks, so it was a nice excuse to go, then we went here... http://www.hollywoodlighting.biz to find theatrical make-up and stuff of that nature. Then we took a detour through downtown Portland to get stuck in rush hour traffic on purpose to people watch while driving slow.

[JennyStar]

totally unrelated, but why aren't my links showing up? I did the hyperlink thing it said to do in the FAQ section, but it still doesn't hyper link... What am I doing wrong?

Perhaps they will show up now? Just trying again...

[JennyStar]

"The last time I was actively involved in such, many years ago, "failure" had already deteriorated to receiving an A++ as a grade rather than an A+++. While the cudgel of failure was still held over the heads of the students, the actual possibility of it had been removed."

Chamille's best friend has been grounded from Chamille (my daughter) because she failed most of her classes last year. Failing still happens. What you describe isn't at all what I see from our public schooled friends who do receive B's and C's and sometimes D's and F's. If you were to tell my daughter that kids in school don't receive failing grades, I think she'd wholeheartedly disagree with that assumption.

Failing in school is more than a real possibility, it happens.

I like the title of John Holt's book "How Children Fail". At first I was thinking, before I read the book, "how mean to call children failures.", but of course he discusses something much different. That book is more about how schools fail children, not in the sense of giving them bad grades, but more about how they fail to do what they set out to do, educate children, and in the process of doing that, they fail, and do a number of other very damaging things that "fail" children.

"There's only one way to bring about a failure to learn. That is to remove all possibility of failure."

While in theory I'd agree with that statement, it isn't how I choose to see things. If the goal is learning, and you actually have a stated goal of such a thing, removing failure, would inherently make it so that nobody failed. If your goal is to have a rich, full life, learning will happen as a result of that. I think parents can fail children just as much as schools can, by not providing a stimulating environment. I can fail as a parent who unschools, even if I remove the idea of failure.

[JennyStar]

Okay, trying again...
http://www.sockdreams.com

Okay, I figured it out!!!! I'm soooo proud of myself!

http://www.hollywoodlighting.biz

[laura bowman]

my sister has tried repeatedly to get her daughter held back. they refuse on the grounds that they cannot have too many failing students per year. somehow it affects funding or something...i really don't know. no child left behind i guess. but her passing has nothing to do with having gained any of the required knowledge for that grade level...it is just about getting them through it.

[Julie B]

I find it interesting to discuss schoolish stuff at times, particularly when it highlights something about our own way of living.

In our state (NY) it seems that a small number of "failures" is desirable, with preference toward having most in the middle scoring ranges--your standard bell curve. I say this because of observing (back when I was working in public school) changes in how our statewide standardized high school English test was scored from one year to the next.

We used a scoring grid to input two numbers (a multiple choice score and an essay score). The grid gave us a final score. Noticing significant changes in scores but not student performance or test difficulty from one year to the next, I used the grid from the year before to input scores.

Yup, they just altered that sucker so there were about the same number of failing grades, a large number of mid-range grades, and far fewer As and Bs. It just looked too weird to have so many students doing so "well," so they adjusted appearances to their liking. School performance is also related to funding. Thank you, New York, for further demonstrating the absurdity of using numbers in this way!

I've explained this little trick to people before when they wax poetic on the value of testing and evalution, so it's a useful tidbit to have as an unschooler.

[diana (hahamommy)]

Hayden seems to have no negative attachment to failing.
As he bowled one night, he would toss the ball and cry "Fail!" and not watch where it went... I was immediately concerned (blasted school memories!!) and worried that he was seeing himself as a failure. "Failure?! No, I'm a Fail-er -- one who doesn't care about failing."
From an incredibly self-assured 9 year old, I learned that failing does not make one a failure. To embrace your inner Fail-er will open the path to many happy and successful ideas in life.
He still cries "fail" when he bowls, and his average score has more than doubled!