unschooling food on a budget

[Lynda]

How do you try to ensure it works out fair for all of you if you have limited resources? For example, if you have a big bag of sweets and one person wants to eat lots of them right away, but others want to save them for later in the week. Do you divide them up so each person has their share of the sweets to eat when they want? How do you balance the need to eat perishables before they go off with letting everyone eat what they want? At the moment my kids want to know how many each other have had to decide how many to have themselves, which I think is fair to make sure someone doesn't leave one of the others without, but it also seems to work the other way - that if M has had 3, K will think she has to have 3, even if she would have been happy with 2 if she hadn't know what M had.

I can see how the principle would work if there's a plentiful supply of food, but I'm trying now to understand how it translates to our circumstances. I hope my rambling has made sense!

[Sandra Dodd]

Maybe instead of thinking of it as "unschooling food" (which doesn't make sense since no one "schools food"), think of it as removing arbitrary restrictions. It's not arbitrary when a mom is honest and she's out of something. It's arbitrary when there's a cookie jar and a mom says "have one" or "not until tomorrow."

-=-if M has had 3, K will think she has to have 3, even if she would have been happy with 2 if she hadn't know what M had-=-

That comes from deprivation or controls. I'm guessing you're new to this and you have in the past counted and doled out and said no. (Maybe not, but when kids want things to be "fair" in a counted, measured way, they usually learned it from experience.)

-=-How do you balance the need to eat perishables before they go off with letting everyone eat what they want?-=-

Buy fewer perishables. Let the perishables be fun foods too (it will happen after a while). Some things can be preserved when they're wilty or old--banana bread or banana pancakes, cooked sliced apples (when the apples are getting soft or brownish), soup or stew with getting-old veggies.

By gradually saying "yes" more and "no" less the kids will relax and trust and accept. It takes a while, but it doesn't start happening until after you've done it a while, so starting and working through it is the only way I know of, if former restrictions need to be overcome.

In case you haven't seen this collection:
http://sandradodd.com/food

[laura bowman]

it makes perfect sense. this is something we run into as well...especially in the last 10 months or so of my letting go of food control issues. the treats they sometimes want to pick out are more expensive than what i would spend on the food to make a meal or two. this gives us a chance to talk about money and priorities. it's not always that way though. there are times when i can say yes more. it just depends.

as far as making sure everyone gets a fair share, i have found that my kids are pretty good at figuring that out on their own. if i put a bowl of candy out on the table, they know it is not something they have to ask about. but if i buy a pack of candy bars that has only 8 or so in it, then they will usually ask first...not because they think they can't have it but because they know it is something that has a limited amount and are usually checking to see if others have had some.

i don't think it would be terribly bad to say each person gets x amount if you buy a pack of 6 sodas and there are 6 people, each person gets 1...if someone doesn't want theirs then it would be up to them to say it's up for grabs.

[Vicki "Jakesmome" Watkins]

I ask my kids "how many do you want?" They almost always say a different amount each, and I think it makes them feel in control. They can always come back and get more if there's more left, or if they want, but usually they stick with what their initial amount was.

[Bronwen Felesina]

We have had very limited resources for years now. I say- these oranges are the only fruit we have until next week, if we each had one a day- it could last. or- ok, what would we like to have as a "treat", this huge thing of parmeasean cheese or a water melon or what? OR Hey!! avocados are on super sale!! Breyers ice cream is two for six again! I have 28 dollars till the 20th. Sometimes I say Please don't eat all of this as I want to save it for "---". give everyone information about the situation, and everyone helps with it.

People eat what they want. If it is gone- someone will say, "oh my gosh! I didn't get any of that!' and then be sad about it, and then someone else will say, oh shoot, sorry, I can't seem to stop when we have ice cream- I won't eat as much next time. There might be an angry exchange if someone felt really jypped (mostly from my seven year old!) after things have cooled down I or someone might say something like, I could make you some cookies (or whatever)?

and reading your question again- you ask "do you divide up the sweets..." - I think in this wording might be a paradygm shift. Somehow, I wouldn't word it like that- um..like I don't think I own the problem and solution of the food thing- um.. like it is whoever wants the watermelon's problem, if I want some watermelon- then it is my issue too- and I put my preference in there. If I don't want watermelon or sweets or whatever, then I might offer suggestions and give information (ie. I remember last time Gordy got his choice of ice cream), but it is not my problem to figure out- I don't own it.

I think this is an important point. Because you can only truly "give information" if you DON'T have an adgenda- like you really want the kids to do your idea- have one a day- or whatever.

Letting the kids own thier own problems and not solving them I think is a cornerstone of unschooling- that is what "living" is I think. They are living thier life- you are not living it for them- you are just there to lend a hand if they want it and to enjoy and love eachother. Mainstream culture says we own the kids, we can't trust them to make decisions so we gotta "school" them tell them what to do and think, they are nimwhits- but when they turn 18 they are grown up- so then their brain can handle making decisions.

Asking yourself "whose problem is this?" goes a long way in illuminating where you are not trusting, not letting them figure out what is the best decision for them selves. It also helps in your wording I think because if it IS your problem, then you speak like you are telling them your feelings your issue- I didnt even get one bowl of ice cream last time!- with out thinking needed to do a specific thing, or that you own all the solutions.

GOtta go vacume up weevils! I kept finding these little bugs I had never seen before around the house, and I was so confused- it was such a mystery! Turns out I had some old bird seed from some other state that was a perfect place for them to live. so funny. all this internet searching and stuff!

Love
Bronwen

[Schuyler]

Having not gone from scarcity to plenty I don't know how it works first hand. However I have gone from seasonal shifts, I mean a punnet of fresh picked strawberries from the PYO up the road trumps just about any other food in the house at that moment.

One of the things is to honestly assess what it costs. I know that if David goes to Lidl he can buy a seriously lot of crisps and candy for less than what it would cost for equal amounts of fresh fruit and vege. Not that we exclude either, but recognizing where is good for a bargain helps. If both M and K want sweets buy sweets. Have a shelf or a drawer and fill it with crisps and sweets that they like, wotsits, malteasers, celebrations, quality street, whatever you can get on special. While letting them have free access to those things bring them food as well. Bring them hummus with bread sticks and cubes of cheese and apple slices and carrot sticks and celery and bread and peanut butter and grapes and strawberries and blueberries and whatever else you can think of, maybe all of the perishables, not all at once, but when you think they might be hungry. Note what they eat and replace it, make your grocery list based on what they eat, at least to some extent. Offer them crisps and sweets too. If they ask, say yes. The need to have equal will disappear in the face of plenty. The only reason why equal is important is if it is a rare good. You don't need equal air or equal water or equal pickled beets unless those things are controlled.

David (dh) is working on a paper about the costs of controlling food. Apparently girls are far more sensitive to food controls than boys are. Not that you can control food in boys with impunity, but girls seem to end up less able to tell when they are full if they have parents telling them how much and what to eat. It isn't a healthy thing to have someone else dictating to you what you can and can't eat, what is equitable. If 2 would have been enough and 3 becomes important because it is equal, there has been too much food control in the house. It will take time and plenty of sweets to make it less important. It will mean that you have to be prepared to watch Fab after Fab after Fab disappear. I calculated it once and on special I could get Fab's at about 13 pence a Fab. It isn't that much money, not really.

Schuyler

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-Letting the kids own thier own problems and not solving them I think is a cornerstone of unschooling- that is what "living" is I think. -=-

I don't see this as a cornerstone of unschooling. I think the mother has a duty to keep peace and to make sure her children are happy and fed. If one of the ways she does that is to provide more choices and freedoms, that's great, but if freedom goes so far that the mom has washed her hands of the effects, that skirts neglect.

There's something between solving problems and letting children solve them just however their little skills can manage (at the expense of other children sometimes), and that is helping them, coaching them, guiding them, throwing out ideas and if it's tense, giving limited choices. Nobody truly has unlimited choices. We have geographical and temporal and financial and logistical realities to deal with. So I think it's better to tell a child she can do what she wants within certain boundaries (don't hurt people or property, don't be wasteful, be thoughtful) than to say "You can do anything in the whole wide world," because no parent has the power to grant that wish anyway.

Because I chose (with my husband's agreement and cooperation and eventual wholeheartedness) attachment parenting and unschooling, it's my responsibility as a senior team member to make sure it works out well for all concerned. None of my kids had the wherewithal or foresight to manage to make it work out for everyone. I'm the one who had The Big Idea.

[Bronwen Felesina]

Yes. You shed more light on what I wrote.

I see that Sandra is trying to make sure that unschooling is not thought of as "washing your hands of effects", neglect, letting them fend for themselves- etc. important points- and what "outsiders" often assume.

I find talking about "who owns the problem", really help people move towards a more trusting and relaxed relationship with thier kids. It helps moms keep thier center.

I guess I run into more unschooling moms who are "doormats" than neglecters- so it is my bias when answering. Mom's whose kids assume that if they are unhappy, it is thier mom's fault, moms who feel guilty if their kids express any dissapointment, moms who basically create a situation of entitlement instead of mutual generosity.

I say it is a cornerstone, because I feel if you believe you own your kids' problems- then you are not trusting them, you are living thier life for them. Trust is the thing right? I am not sure where you get I said "you can do anything in the whole wide world" Sandra, (or its corollary, I am not allowed to "do" anything cause I can't control manipulate punish praise etc), but I do know that that is something some people say and it can get translated into being absolutely inapropriate in a hospital . You can read my reply to that sweet woman if you are really interested in what I am thinking.

I think there is a place between saying "you can do anything in the whole wide world" and I will just stand around and watch what happens and "don't hurt people or property, don't be wasteful". ANd sandra and I both described what that looks like in our posts. My point is partially that finding out who owns the problem (and letting go emotionally when it is not YOUR problem) goes a long way in figureing out what TO say, so you are not bossing and you are not doing nothing and feeling horrible either way.


YEah?

Love
BRonwen

[Julie]

Ok,,,I am a little lost on this post...however. With the first point, and I have both teens and toddlers... with the teens, who understand, and have compassion for another's feelings (or who at least should have understanding) I remind them that thier sister has not had breakfast yet, so to please remember to leave a bagel. So, I guess I remind them to be fair. I don't think that this is so out of the unschooling concept, as I think fairness is a principle that I want to impart upon them.

With the toddlers, for the most part they are pretty fair. Always they want to make sure that they each have the same. Fine. Sometimes my 4 year old will sneak another gummy worm. But if the 2 year old doesn't know...then who does it hurt?

I am relatively new at the whold US thing, however, a few weeks ago, I stopped for gas, and my kids wanted munchins from the dunkin' donut counter. I gave my 4 year old my refillable card and told her to go get some munchkins for herself and her brother, while i paid for the gas.

She told the girl at the counter that she wanted some munchkins... and when the girl asked her how many she would like...my 4 year old answered "4 for me, and 4 for my brother". She could have said 20 or 40 or 100. It was a grand moment for me. The fact that letting go of the food restrictions I once felt were so important, let her be in control, and she did wonderfully at it.

As far as the second topic, who owns the problem? I'd have to say that it is my problem when when my children do not think that they have been treated fairly. And therefore, I would help them to get the fairness that they all deserve. It is my job to protect the rights of all my children. Not really my problem...my duty.

Maybe? Maybe not?

Julie

[Lynda]

I agree, it's important to stand up for the older ones until the younger siblings have the maturity to understand leaving some for their brother or sister. My M is a teen, and so sometimes isn't around when the other 2 are eating, but he might still like to have some of it later. S(who's 8) understands this, but K(who's 6 1/2) hasn't got there yet. I'm trying to figure out how to encourage sharing, so that M doesn't regularly loose out by not being there at the right moment, without perpetuating the counting of how many each person has had & obsessing over it. I think that is my problem, in as much as that I have an duty to deal with it otherwise K would learn that she can walk all over her brother.
M often is so caught up in what he's doing that he just doesn't think of getting something to eat or drink. If it's there right in front of him he'll eat it, but mostly wouldn't actively go to get something. Yes, even when he's hungry. Sometimes he reminds me of the dotty scientists you get in Enid Blyton books, who sits with their head so filled of their studies that the lunch tray is still untouched when the tea tray is taken in!

[Heather]

---that if M has had 3, K will think she has to have 3, even if she would have been happy with 2 if she hadn't know what M had.---

The post seems to have taken a small turn, but I wanted to briefly reply to this. My oldest is the only one who ever had food controls placed on him. (If I knew then, what I knew now... LOL)

For a time, he always had to have the same amount of ANYTHING his younger brother had. (They are almost 10 and 3). He also had to have what his brother was eating, whether he was hungry or not. All I did was respect his wishes, not to be fair, but because he had a need. If Milo requested 3, and Skylar requested 3, I gave them each 3. I never made a deal out of it. In fact, I never thought it was a big deal anyway. That too passed. Now he chooses according to his wants/needs instead of his need to be fair or equal.

What's fair for one person is not necessarily whats fair for another. Maybe it's a hang-up of mine but, I don't like to talk about "fairness". If we do things just to be fair then someone isn't getting enough and someone is getting more than they want/need. It's situational.

[laura bowman]

i've experience this as well. but with tv. my oldest, samuel, lived pretty much tv free until he was 7. i find that he is the one that is most enamored with television still. he is still trying to overcome that deprivation. it seems like my daughter was the most effected by my food controls though since it was just a few years ago when mommy had a little food meltdown and made our home very food unfriendly. i am so glad that with sandra's help, we are all recovering from that. but it's taking some time.

i like this talking about the idea of fairness and what it really means. i am learning a lot here. i don't ever hear my kids use the word fair (which i hadn't thought about until now), but i see them making sure that everyone feels like they got what they wanted/needed. samuel is especially sensitive to other people's needs in this way.

[Lynda]

==What's fair for one person is not necessarily whats fair for another.==

My understanding of 'fair' is unbiased, just, or without favour; so if it's fair, then it's fair for everyone, not just for one person. Which is not to say that everyone would get the same, but that they'd each get something close to what they need.