unschooling food on a budget

[Lynda]

How do you try to ensure it works out fair for all of you if you have limited resources? For example, if you have a big bag of sweets and one person wants to eat lots of them right away, but others want to save them for later in the week. Do you divide them up so each person has their share of the sweets to eat when they want? How do you balance the need to eat perishables before they go off with letting everyone eat what they want? At the moment my kids want to know how many each other have had to decide how many to have themselves, which I think is fair to make sure someone doesn't leave one of the others without, but it also seems to work the other way - that if M has had 3, K will think she has to have 3, even if she would have been happy with 2 if she hadn't know what M had.

I can see how the principle would work if there's a plentiful supply of food, but I'm trying now to understand how it translates to our circumstances. I hope my rambling has made sense!

[Lynda]

===i like this talking about the idea of fairness and what it really means. i am learning a lot here. i don't ever hear my kids use the word fair (which i hadn't thought about until now), but i see them making sure that everyone feels like they got what they wanted/needed===

I'm now wondering if changing my language would help. If I talk with K about trying to find a solution that would make everyone happy, rather than talking about 'fair'. Perhaps 'fair' has come to mean 'equal' to her. Is 6 too young to understand the concept of the veil of ignorance? lol

Or do I just need to grit my teeth & live through the stage of K wanting everything in case it's not available later & wait for her to learn to trust that it will be? Are my attempts to guide her to being considerate of her brother & sister actually getting in the way of her understanding that she doesn't need to worry that there might not be chocolate tomorrow, so she doesn't need to eat it all today?

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- In fact, what's going on in someone else's mind is never my issue. The only thing I can concern myself with is my own thinking, and whether or not my thinking is working for me.-=-

Maybe it's a personality difference. People tell me their stories, their problems. People ask me for advice thinking. It happened yesterday when I went for my driver's license. A woman sat down next to me and started spilling. I'll tell the longer story on my blog here, I guess; it's too long for this.

In the SCA (medieval club) I've had students off and on for a long time. I have one now. He called for help thinking. It wasn't about what to do so much as about how to see a situation--how he could be more at peace with his thoughts, or how he could take a different mental stance so that he could make longterm peace with a situation. (He's just moved to a small town where he's a minority and isn't used to it; I grew up in a similar situation and he knew that.)

Marty was frustrated recently and talked to me about his thoughts, his perceptions. He wasn't going to change his actions; they were already courteous and good. He wanted help with clarity and compassion.

This whole conversation about food is more about attitude and patience and perception and the changing of belief than it is about physical food, isn't it?

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-I find talking about "who owns the problem", really help people move towards a more trusting and relaxed relationship with thier kids. It helps moms keep thier center.-=-

Yesterday Keith told me to back the car up so he could put the motorcycle in the garage. I didn't close the door of the car, and backed the door into a little wooden shed/box he has near the driveway, that he built. It torqued the door a little. It will have to be fixed. It torqued the box a little and broke one 1x4, which is still fastened and all, but it's not beautiful anymore.

I thought all kinds of thoughts about how it could have been worse, and I was relieved. Keith tried to be nice about it, but he was very frustrated. This car was just in the shop. Why couldn't I have just shut the door?

I could comfort myself with the idea that it's Keith's problem, but we're married and have been together 30 years, and part of that is that I have seen Keith's problems as my problems for thirty years. I try to help him, to comfort him, to make his life easier. Yesterday I didn't do so well, so I could go "la la la" in my head, or I can be extra sweet and kind until it's all fixed and paid for and live a little remorsefully.

If my child is hurt because I left her to work it out with a brother who's nearly twice as big as she is (sometimes they were WAY more than twice as big), I would have to sacrifice my self respect and integrity not to feel remorse.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-I remind them that thier sister has not had breakfast yet, so to please remember to leave a bagel. So, I guess I remind them to be fair.-=-

Maybe instead of "fair" you could think "courteous" or "generous"?

Or you could put one bagel in a plastic bag and put the sleeping kid's name on it. :-)

-=-It is my job to protect the rights of all my children. Not really my problem...my duty.-=-

I agree with that, but "protect the rights" sounds kind of harsh and clinical. Legal. Maybe protect the safety and feelings would be an easier way to think of it.

If there are two bagels and three kids and one is asleep, I might offer the sleeping one something particular when he wakes up. Something he likes. Or offer to make an omelet or malt o meal or something I might not jump up and offer if the kitchen is full of easily accessible things I know he likes.

[aidan sutherland]

I might be able to give you a couple of helpful ideas about unschooling food on a tight budget. I have four kids and in the past I have ruled the kitchen with an iron hand. What I fixed was what they ate! Unschooling food has been a process of supporting the kids in their efforts to get what they want, given what we have to work with.

My kids love sweets, convenience food, and fruit. All expensive options. We would go broke if I tried to feed them on that stuff all the time. But if you stand there lecturing about scarcity and then say, but eat what you want, that's not really unschooling. What I've done is to seek out deals on the stuff they love and buy so much of it that they have a chance to feel saturated. For example, when Breyers ice cream went on sale earlier this summer, I bought about $30 worth. They had the choice to eat ice cream for every meal for about two weeks before it was all gone. In my experience, there are a number of things that can satisfy those urges for sweets or junk, so it's good enough if I have one or two kinds in quantities that are enough for everyone.

My other technique is to stay on the ball with my own kitchen management. I am almost always there with a healthy meal when I know they're going to be hungry. Most of the time they just eat that, because it's there and easy (and good, of course!). I have a lot of frugal techniques up my sleeve in the kitchen- leftovers of all kinds, aging produce, carrot tops and onion skins- all go into a container in the freezer to make a pot of broth. I use that when I make rice, beans, or soup. I use leftover oatmeal and other grains in muffins and bread.

You may be able to free up some money in the grocery budget by using the pantry principle. I got this from the Tightwad Gazette. You make a list of your staples, then you set up a price book with a listing for each item. You buy each item at it's lowest price possible. When things go on sale, you buy enough to last your family until the next sale. When you cook, you use only what you have- no running to the store for chicken, or planning menus and then going out to buy the stuff at whatever price.

Don't forget, too, that if it's sweets they want- home baked sweets are delicious and very cheap! They can make their cake or cookies however they like them, too. My kids love to whip up desserts and eat them for lunch. Or you can make a triple batch of some cookie they adore, enough that scarcity won't be an issue.

When the kids are asking for something and you don't think you can afford to buy it, start asking, how can we make something that's close to this, if not exactly the same? I enjoy the ingenuity my kids have developed since I changed my perspective in this way.

I hope this helps!

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- Or you can make a triple batch of some cookie they adore, enough that scarcity won't be an issue.-=-

And if you freeze some of the cookie dough, you can have the wonderful fresh cookie smell several times! I sometimes freeze my dough anyway, so the cookies are domed and not flat (if they start baking from cold dough).

[Ren]

We often decide to bake/cook something on our own that is more expensive. I've gotten pretty good at this living-on-a-budget thing.:) "Fair" is really not about equal amounts. My children are really cool about that part, but we've lived without food restrictions for most of their lives (other than my health food stage about 8-10 years ago when I assumed I could make everyone eat like me!).

We've never controlled amounts, so the transition to trusting their choices was relatively easy. TV was my difficult issue!

When I really look at our budget there is usually a way to make sure everyone has their preferences. Jared loves pudding, so I buy it in a huge can at Sam's club. It's about $3 for enough to last him almost a week. That's a long time when you really LOVE pudding. We bake cinnamon rolls (another favorite) and purchase lots of fruits and veggies at the farmers market or grow our own. Growing food thrills my children and saves a lot of money.

We shop at Big Lots (or other discount stores) for bottled drinks and convenience foods that cost too much any other way. I've noticed Jalen hid a Hershey's chocolate bar in his dresser after our last camp out and ate a little bit each day. When I asked him about it he said "oh, I love chocolate so I saved this one for myself". I made sure to replace it this week.:)

My kids are pretty generous with each other and don't hesitate to share. But they trust that if something is gone, I will buy more.I try to instill a feeling of abundance, even when money is tight. I think if we say "we don't have the money for it" all the time, it creates this notion that money fixes everything (well, it does fix a lot!).

Rather, I try to offer up creative solutions to meet the need. They're pretty dang good at this process now. It's more about "how can we ALL get what we need/want within the reality we're living at the moment" than trying to divvy everything up equally.

I've noticed that when something gets cooked, they'll check with other family members to make sure everyone got some. NObody worries about who is getting more...but that comes with development and an environment of abundance. Give it time and reassure them that there is always more, even if it's not right-this-moment.

[Sandra Dodd]

What Ren says is true at my house, too. That's sweet that you replenished the candy bar stash. There's a drawer under the TV in our bedroom. It used to be the stand for a microwave (the table the TV is on) and in that drawer, Keith puts dark chocolate. Usually Dove bar miniatures of some sort. And when he first started doing it, years back, he would eat quite a bit. But now it can sit and sit. I eat maybe one or two a week, MAYbe. Sometimes neither of us touches it for two weeks.

Sometimes I put a chocolate bar in my desk drawer.

When I was younger, I would eat chocolate pretty quickly, because I grew up with measures and with my mom literally counting out grapes or M&Ms to make sure (in a kind of hateful way, sometimes) that we all had exactly the same amount. I didn't want my kids to experience that in any way.

They've all turned out patient and accepting and generous. I didn't expect that. I just expected them not to become overeaters.

[Ren]

We keep chocolate in the art room most of the time. It's our "thing" to have tea and chocolate out there while creating.:)
I've noticed that we used to get into that stash and use it up pretty fast. Lately, we can have bags of dove or other yummy chocolate for weeks. I try to keep it stocked and when we run out the mantra is "we can always get more".

I think one of the main differences is just the way I look at it. "We can always get more" is a lot more abundant than "we don't have money for that". It may be true that I don't have the money right at the MOMENT, but focusing on what we CAN have rather than what we DON'T have is a huge shift for me.

Trusting that all is well and we will have everything we want provides a calmness for my children too. I don't have money today, but we will figure it out. Long term thinking allows us to assume we will have all that we need. I know it might seem like semantics, but focusing on lack doesn't get us very far.

[Bronwen Felesina]

You wrote:
>>Maybe it's a personality difference. People tell me their stories, their problems. People ask me for advice thinking. It happened yesterday when I went for my driver's license. A woman sat down next to me and started spilling.

I think I know why people "spill" to you Sandra. I think it is because you offer everything you have to them- all your ideas, fears, emotions about the situation they gave you- but you listen really well and are totally present at the same time. Your generosity is unparalled and inspirational. You give with no strings- you have no adgenda. They know that they get to decide what to do with what you have given them, and you will love them anyway.

No strings - that is what I mean when I am saying - don't "own" the problem. I don't mean - sheesh! It is HIS problem, let HIM deal with it. I mean "what you do with this I am offering is up to you".

I mean- figure out who and what the problem is, and see if it is actually yours- or if it is someone elses. If you are mad that the house is messy- that is your problem- and you don't have the right to make others to fix it.

and visa versa- but with a different feel. Your kids are upset because they wanted to play with so and so and so and so didn't come to park day. If you have the feeling that because your kids are upset- it is ACTUALLY your problem- then that is leading to enmeshed boundaries. They should get to own thier own problems. I shouldn't take them from them. BUT - I CHOOSE TO BE AVAILABLE GENEROUS AND GIVING OF MYSELF TO THEM TO HELP THEM SOLVE THEIR PROBLEMS IF THEY WISH. (felt like enunciating that last line- forgive me) (hey! maybe they are at thier house? should I call them?)

WHen you say- part of why you have had a good relationship with your husband is because "his problems are my problems" - what I take that to mean is that you choose to help and support him when he desires- you choose to help him look at his problems and fix them, you are generous with yourself and your resourses. If he said- "please don't help me here- I gotta think" You wouldn't get upset- like- "well! it is MY problem TOO- and I want to fix it!" (something parents do ALL the time)- and if you were really busy and upset yourself, I am thinking he wouldn't say- "hey!! My problem is YOUR problem- stop what you are upset about or doing and come help ME!!!!!" (I always stop what I am doing/feeling to help my kids but if I really can't (I have a fever or something) they don't feel entitled to my help- "HEY!!! you are MY mom- you owe me- get out of bed and GET ME WATER!", in fact they are incredibly empathetic and helpfull to me too)

I keep talking about this little point because I think co-dependancy is a major problem with this culture- and I think unschooling fixes it.

When I say: "Letting the kids own thier own problems and not solving them I think is a cornerstone of unschooling- that is what "living" is I think."

and you say: "learning how to make choices by making choices, and living whole lives in the real world."

We are talking about the same thing I believe. Maybe what you mean is that you are "letting" your child think he is making choices- but really- you are controlling things and would let that control be known if things got hairy and you felt they were sucking at what they were doing - even if they thought they were doing well. But I don't think so, I don't think you mean that. I think you mean that they really DO make thier own choices- they really DO own thier own life- you don't think it is an illusion that you could shatter at any minute.
What I am saying isn't that I *wouldn't* do everything in my power to let a person know that he was headed down what I thought was the wrong path- "please please! heroin hurts people! Let me tell you about aunt suzy the junky who has no teeth and is in jail..."- including thowing myself infront of a bullet or train or something. Or I wouldn't be devastated if my child did something horrible and I wasn't there to help or something. (like, well! it is not MY problem, they made thier bed! they have to lie in it!). But that ultimately, it is not MY life- I don't own it.

It is in part this attitude that enables my kids to totally trust me, they know they can ask me anything, tell me anything- and they want to- because I am their best bet, their best resource for decision making, because I love them more than anyone- with no agenda, I will give them all I have. Seems like that is what you are saying too?

Love
Bronwen

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-I keep talking about this little point because I think co-dependancy is a major problem with this culture- and I think unschooling fixes it.-=-

Ah.
Co-dependency can be a problem. Unschooling shouldn't be called out to fix it. It can (should) be fixed separately in a person who has that confusion, and then unschooling can proceed as it will.

People can swing too far, in getting out of crippling co-dependency. Some people whose lives were a mass of conditions and the neediness and control of others think the only way to recover is to go to the absolute complete opposite of that. A friend lost a marriage, a house,and pretty much the trust of her kids because she did that. She decided she had said "yes" too long for bad reasons, and so started to say "NO." She told people no so much, and told herself that it was good and healthy, that she ended up very alone and homeless for a while. I'm one of the only people who was brave enough to say she was going too far and it was no way to be a friend or a mom.

I'm uncomfortable with your communication methods here. You're giving me an all or nothing option. You're putting words in my mouth and asking me to sign off on them or to reject them whole.

-=- Maybe what you mean is that you are "letting" your child think he is making choices- but really- you are controlling things and would let that control be known if things got hairy and you felt they were sucking at what they were doing - even if they thought they were doing well. But I don't think so, I don't think you mean that. I think you mean that they really DO make thier own choices- they really DO own thier own life- you don't think it is an illusion that you could shatter at any minute.-=-

This is too much of YOU projecting onto me and others. Please try to write what you think without also trying to write that I do and don't think. You've missed the mark, and it feels a little like I'm taking a public lie detector test, and your emotions are at stake. Not good.

[Bronwen Felesina]

Fixing co-dependancy isn't the reason someone would unschool- but having truely trusting open relationships does require not being co-dependant. Being co-dependant is not just for wives of alcoholics, IMO, our culture breeds it.

"People can swing too far, in getting out of crippling co-dependency. Some people whose lives were a mass of conditions and the neediness and control of others think the only way to recover is to go to the absolute complete opposite of that. A friend lost a marriage, a house,and pretty much the trust of her kids because she did that. She decided she had said "yes" too long for bad reasons, and so started to say "NO." She told people no so much, and told herself that it was good and healthy, that she ended up very alone and homeless for a while. I'm one of the only people who was brave enough to say she was going too far and it was no way to be a friend or a mom."

I agree with this for sure. for sure.

"This is too much of YOU projecting onto me and others. Please try to write what you think without also trying to write that I do and don't think. You've missed the mark, and it feels a little like I'm taking a public lie detector test, and your emotions are at stake. Not good."

This is you making a meta message. I have felt everything that you have interpereted about my writing has "missed the mark" and taken pains to try to illustrate further. If I missed the mark in my interperation of your writing- tell me so. I am sorry you feel like this is a lie detector test, or that I have "emotions" about what you say. I never felt you lied, and am sorry if I wrote something that made you feel I thought so. Sheesh- I never even feel I am even disagreeing with you - but that the communication is not clear. I love discussions about this and I love to get my writing and ideas challenged and picked apart- it helps me clarify myself and examine discover more about things. Other people have said they enjoy it too, and that it is not a waste of my time. No one has to read this, no one has to reply to it.
So here I do disagree with you- I feel this discussion *is* good.

Bronwen