unschooling food on a budget

[Lynda]

How do you try to ensure it works out fair for all of you if you have limited resources? For example, if you have a big bag of sweets and one person wants to eat lots of them right away, but others want to save them for later in the week. Do you divide them up so each person has their share of the sweets to eat when they want? How do you balance the need to eat perishables before they go off with letting everyone eat what they want? At the moment my kids want to know how many each other have had to decide how many to have themselves, which I think is fair to make sure someone doesn't leave one of the others without, but it also seems to work the other way - that if M has had 3, K will think she has to have 3, even if she would have been happy with 2 if she hadn't know what M had.

I can see how the principle would work if there's a plentiful supply of food, but I'm trying now to understand how it translates to our circumstances. I hope my rambling has made sense!

[Sandra Dodd]

I agree that the discussion is good. I don't want to be pressed to say I'm agreeing or disagreeing with another person, though. I want to put the ideas out there and let people interpret them as they wish to.

My objection is to this:
-=-Maybe what you mean is that you are "letting" your child think he is making choices- but really- you are controlling things and would let that control be known if things got hairy and you felt they were sucking at what they were doing - even if they thought they were doing well. But I don't think so, I don't think you mean that.-=-

It seems too much about me, for something I didn't write. I don't see how I can respond yes or no without seeming to have said something I didn't say.

-=-I think you mean that they really DO make thier own choices- they really DO own thier own life- you don't think it is an illusion that you could shatter at any minute.-=-

Without knowing what you mean by "illusion," I can't respond well to this either. Whether you intended to create a word trap or not, there one sits. It's a cousin of "are you still beating your wife?"

It is not an illusion that I have a moral and legal responsibility to take care of my children. We could talk about what "take care of" means, but it won't matter. If an officer of the law or of the court system thinks I'm not taking care of my children, that matters. I can't say to a judge, "Well he owns his own life." I can't even say to a judge that I own MY own life. I could say it, but it wouldn't be wise nor fully true. I was born in the U.S., I willingly purchased a house in a city with laws, in a neighborhood with covenants. There are implicit and explicit agreements in all of that.

I can either take care of my children or the state will take them away and find someone else to take care of them. There aren't exceptions to that. So when I have made decisions about what leeway and freedom to give my children (because it's up to me and my husband to decide how much to give them, as "none" is pretty much legal and "very little" is what's expected), I have considered hundreds of factors, and I do so all the time.

-=- ...you are "letting" your child think he is making choices- but really- you are controlling things... -=-

Please give some examples. I don't like the quotation marks on "letting" as though there's actual letting and so-called letting. "Let" is "to allow." I AM allowing choices. They don't think they're making choices, they know they are. But they're doing it because I let them (no quotes, I really DID let them).

[Katherine]

Fair or equal would be the number or amount of the food or whatever is being doled out.

Meeting needs is not about fairness at all. It's an individualized treatment meant to answer the need, want, cry or look of each particular individual.

And this is why it takes sensitivity or empathy in order to work. Samuel is especially aware of others needs, right? Meeting needs is something he does well. But he is not doing it for reasons of fairness. It's about the individual whom he is keenly aware of.

Awareness works better than strict fairness. Because maybe there's someone who isn't interested in having a fair share of whatever is being doled out. Awareness would give that person what they want... none.

[Merlin]

Hi....Merlin here...I'm new to the forum but have been meaning to post for a while about the several aspects of unschooling but today's bugbear is food allocation...now we have medium term perishables that are designed mainly for going out...wrapped bars....they taste good...how do you ensure that the children don't eat the "going out" food when they're hungry?

This is following on from the custard cream incident where it seems that if you let them eat them, they will, until they're gone in a couple of days - rather than finding a natural limit.....

Also we have the special homecooked food episode last night where a fantastic meal was provided, the kids pushed and poked at it and went for toast as they were hungry...now we have less bread than we had bargained on and the kids have the idea that whatever is served up they can opt out - if they help make it they'll spot the ingredients and cause a fuss because they don't like "xxx".

I'm for the "right, this is tea.....eat it or not, it's up to you but there's nothing else"....and if they wake up early next day and eat loads of breakfast then fine, they'll burn off the calories during the day. Waiting until a carefully prepared meal has been provided, picking at it and then going to bed on a supper of toast and loads of jam can't be right.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-Waiting until a carefully prepared meal has been provided, picking at it and then going to bed on a supper of toast and loads of jam can't be right.-=-

Was it their idea to wait?
Were the foods their choice?
Did you consider not using the ingredients they don't like yet?

If you become your child's partner instead of adversary everything (all of your lives, now and in the future) will go better.

It seems you resent them, and if they don't already resent you now, they will. It's not worth it.

-=-now we have medium term perishables that are designed mainly for going out...wrapped bars....they taste good...how do you ensure that the children don't eat the "going out" food when they're hungry?-=-

You could buy more of them. You could wrap what you don't want eaten up in something plain and put it up high, or behind other things, so it will be there. But too much of that will cause them to search. Don't be dishonest about it.

If you look at the principles behind why you want them to eat (what is the purpose of food and of the feeling of satisfaction and contentment), then making them wait for a meal they don't want and then shaming them for not liking it is counterproductive to all of it.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

** I'm for the "right, this is tea.....eat it or not, it's up to you but there's nothing else"....and if they wake up early next day and eat loads of breakfast then fine **

And when you're old and wheelchair ridden, and they serve you liver and onions with no other options until breakfast, will that be hunky dory with you? It's what you're modeling for them.

** Waiting until a carefully prepared meal has been provided, picking at it and then going to bed on a supper of toast and loads of jam can't be right. **

Why did they need to wait? It's healthier and more natural to graze throughout the day rather than 3 big meals. Especially so for kids who have smaller stomachs and burn calories faster. They need to eat smaller portions more often.

Three meals is more convenient for adults. But kids *are* inconvenient. Blaming them (in essence) for not making your life easier doesn't build relationships. They are (in essence) guests that you invited into your home to live until they were ready to leave. The more they're honored as guests (who are invited into your world to help and spend time with you if they'd like to) the more they're return that same respect (as they're able to).

** This is following on from the custard cream incident where it seems that if you let them eat them, they will, until they're gone in a couple of days - rather than finding a natural limit..... **

If there isn't enough for someone to reach their limit, they can't. I think what you're looking for is for them to naturally deny themselves to spread out what's in the house until you can buy more. Won't happen. If it feels as if they can't get enough, they will treat it as though it's a rare commodity and scarf down as much as they can.

Someone mentioned in this thread that even though they're on a tight budget, they buy a huge amount of ice cream, enough for kids to feel they've had enough.

** now we have medium term perishables that are designed mainly for going out...wrapped bars....they taste good...how do you ensure that the children don't eat the "going out" food when they're hungry? **

The more you try to control those, the more they'll feel like a treat and the more the kids will want them.

But one of the big draws to food like that is that it's easy to grab and eat. What you can do is have nutritious snacks readily available that are easier to grab than the snacks. Make up a platter. Make cookies. Put the snacks up high so they make conscious choices to get them, rather than grabbing them because they're quick and easy.

What you've basically done -- what most conventional parents do -- is, rather than focusing on the real problem (providing food on a limited budget), you've turned the kids into the problem and you're trying to throw solutions at the kids.

Focus on the problem. Get them involved. Don't, as you'll be tempted to do, come up with solutions and try to get the kids to see the reasonableness. Help them try out solutions to see what works and doesn't work.

[Heather Greek]

May i ask for some advice here also? When we buy a big tub of ice cream,Lukas will insist on eating out of the big tub with a spoon. When i explain to him that it's not sanitory or fair,alot winds up melting,it does no good. I will give him a bowl and a spoon but he will pitch a fit,saying he wants the whole tub. My husband had decided to buy a small container of ice cream. Either way we wind up with no ice cream for ourselves .What do we do..insist that he uses a bowl and shares the large tub or let him pitch a fit? We tried buying a small one for him and a small one for us but he will eat them both. If i tell him the other container is for us,he will go sneak it out and eat it in the bathroom! The same happens with with candy bars. Is this a good time for limits and how do i go about it?

[Katherine]

For a time, say a month, could you see your way to buying a big tub or two for Lukas, and however much besides for yourselves as well? If Lukas is eating ice cream in the bathroom, it seems obvious he wants to feel that ice cream is not being rationed but always available, at least theoretically. If you can buy more at least for a time or even indefinitely, would that be something you feel able to do? The same goes for candy. Buy a nice big stash. If Lukas knows he can have any and all he wants, then after a point he will decide how much he wants to eat (and it won't be a gorging every time he finally gets ahold of a supply).

Make food freely available to everyone in the house.

Karl asked for 4 packages of marshmallows the last trip to the grocery store. I got them. He eats very few of them each day. It's just having the knowledge that they're there. That's what he really wants. If I gave the slightest hint that I wanted to control Karl's supply of food, he would feel limited and desire a hoard far outstretching his needs for food. And if I actually tried to physically take it away from him he would gorge it to make sure he had plenty in his belly whenever possible if I didn't let him maintain his own food supply.

[Sandra Dodd]

It seems to be evidence of limits. Was he limited before?

Some ideas:
Buy ice cream on sale, buy one for him and one for you and put your names on them, maybe.

Let him eat out of the carton if he uses a fresh spoon for each bite. Pull out all your spoons and let him have at it. (If it's too much trouble he might ask for a bowl, and spoons are NOT hard to wash. He could put each just-used spoon in a container of soapy water right then. Just wash the spoons while thinking lovely thoughts.)

Put ice cream into something interesting (funny bowls, mixing bowls, something not intended for ice cream but memorable) as soon as you buy it--divide it into three or four interesting containers.

Maybe?

[Lynda]

What works well for us is making eating ice cream a creative process. We get out tubs of sprinkles, sauces, chocolate beans, maybe some melted chocolate & they can really go to town. Masses of topping seem to satisfy their need for excess.

Or buy lots of individual sized tubs - we can get a pack of 10 for about the same price as 1l of ice cream. Buy several pack so he has plenty to go at. I remember as a teen I'd regularly eat 4 or 5 choc ices at lunchtime. It passed & now I only have choc ices occasionally. For a while I had a thing for soft whip ice cream (a hangover from being pregnant & not 'allowed' to have it) but a couple of visits to Pizza Hut & eat as much as you want ice cream sorted that out.

[laura bowman]

okay, i'm going to expose myself a little. and i'm scared. but i'm going to do it anyway.

as many people know who know me, i have been letting go of my food control issues for the last year. and it has gone mostly smooth. but recently my mom had bipass surgery and it has caused a lot to surface again that i thought i was doing so well letting go of.

and here is my scary place. i am worried about my daughter's weight gain since letting go of food control. there, i've said it. i find myself wanting to go back to food control but i fight it inside constantly because she was the one most affected by it in the first place. obviously that is why she has gained the weight and no one else has. i know this. i know it, i do. that is why i don't give in to that inner pull. but i know that she is feeling my hesitation lately.

so here is my question. how do i happily do this?? how do i close my eyes to what i see? i feel like i'm supposed to do something, but i know where that got us in the past. i know that she has a lot of healing to do and this is the result of what i did, the choices i made. how do i sit with this and believe it will all work itself out??

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- how do i happily do this?? how do i close my eyes to what i see? i feel like i'm supposed to do something, but i know where that got us in the past. i know that she has a lot of healing to do and this is the result of what i did, the choices i made.-=-

Apologize to her, if you can mean it. Tell her you're afraid the limits have created a need in her that she's filling with food and that it could be unhealthy, and you hope that by loving her and REALLY giving her choices without pressure that she will find her own relationship with food, because everyone has to at some point or another.

Most people wait until they're out of the house, or they got sneaky long before. My husband's mom gave small, measured portions regardless of the age, size or desire of the people involved. Keith was 6'1" and his parents and brothers were 5'4 to 5'8. And he was the youngest, and had been fat since infancy. So he learned to sneak food and to eat as much as he possibly could when he got the chance.

Not healthy. He knows it. But it became a part of him for the longest time.

Don't shame her or scare her or warn her. Just tell her you're sorry and be sweet and kind and wonderful. I don't think you can do more or better right now.

I'll ask Pam Sorooshian to come in here. She's written some really good things about eating lately.

Sandra

[Katherine]

My family was constantly afraid I was going to "Dry up and Blow Away" so I got a lot of food forced on me that I didn't want, complete with punishments if I didn't eat as I was told. My reaction was to avoid food as much as possible without getting punished. For a long time food wasn't fun.

When I moved away from home, I was finally able to make food fun to a much greater degree. I learned to cook from someone 20 years older than me who had run a restaurant in NYC, not that I'm good at it like she is but I got a lot out of that experience that was fun- and food-oriented. It was very socialable. Once out on my own, I also went through a lot of fat phases, back to skinny phases, and back again.

I still have a lot of sad stuff in my head about food, lingering from childhood. I get stuff for Karl and Brian to eat and then forget to get stuff for me to eat. I am so glad for unschooling lists that advised helping your children to graze throughout the day instead of eating 3 huge meals a day. It would turn into a battle to get Karl to eat. Like me, he "piddles" all day long with food, but because it's always available throughout the day, he eats when he feels hungry and wants to rather than me being so much in charge of the amounts and types of stuff that he eats.

I don't see that it matters which end you start at. Avoiding too much food or pushing too much food. Either way, it takes the experience of food away from the child while also making it *not* fun. Which leads to waiting until the child can leave home before being able to make food their own experience.

My dad has heart problems that I should already have if I were going to be having them. He's 77 and has changed his diet a lot since he turned 40 when he started having heart attacks. His dad died young in 1950, and I remember he worried that he would die young too. But he still does carpentry and works outside all the time, and is very active. My heart health is more like my mom's, low blood pressure, some angina. Her mom was the same way. Those things are hereditary as far as I can tell. Food has a bearing on heart health but I don't think it's the reason a person has heart problems in the first place.

Even if someone has heart problems, they can change how they eat to suit their health and lifestyle. I think the reason my grandfather died is because so little was known about how to treat heart problems at that time, and he was a chicken and egg farmer (probably not the best diet for someone with heart problems). There's more knowledge about how to deal with heart problems now once they arise. My dad did a balancing act of sometimes taking medical advice and sometimes researching on his own to do what he thought was best.

Ultimately children grow up to make food choices, and the sooner they feel in charge the better so that if they do end up with heart problems then they'll won't already have a long history of food battles, but food freedom to start from.