Is unschooling best for our kids, or for us as parents, or is there a difference?

[Debbie Penley]

I've been pondering some thoughts today, so this will be long!

It started with a discussion in another forum about CIO (cryinig it out) with a baby to get him to sleep. The mother had heard that CIO meant that the child eventually comes to the realization that no matter WHAT they do or HOW hard they cry, no one will come to them. And she didn't want her baby to think that, so she's not CIO. But she resents having to rock the baby to sleep for a length of time, and often again during the night.

One of the responses (of course they dismissed the idea of the child giving up on help coming his way...) from another mother was that her children (NOT CIO) don't nap well, wake often at night, and often wake up unhappy. But not so with her CIO friend, whose children nap for 2 hours, sleep all night, and wake up smiling and talking.

I have found this to be true for me, as well...I co-sleep and nurse on demand, throughout the night, and my kids have never napped well.

Which got me to thinking about WHY I do what I do, from Home birthing to Unschooling....

I don't necessarily think that our kids will turn out BETTER because of the decisions I'm making. In other words, I've seen healthy formula fed babies (I was one!) and my babies, all exclusively breast-fed, still got sick and an occasional ear infection. Not all co-sleepers are confident and my kids still get more diaper rashes when they wear cloth....

So WHY do I do what I'm doing? Do I unschool because I believe my kids will be more successful? Smarter? Happier?

Sometimes homeschoolers will wave the facts about inventors and geniuses who were homeschooled...as if every child who learns at home will turn the world upside down...

When I first became a parent, I wanted to give my child the best of EVERYTHING, knowing I technically couldn't. I can't afford all organic food. We can't afford the "perfect" house, if one can even determine WHAT makes a perfect living space...And I had no idea how to determine what success in life actually meant. I knew it wasn't having money. Or a house. Or STUFF. Or even education. And yet, there must be SOMETHING I could do to make my child happy.

And so I did what came naturally to ME. I trusted my child to know what she needed, and I gave it to her to the best of my ability as long as it wasn't harmful to her or anyone else.

I think that even if I had formula fed her, she would still be the child she is today. I think that even if I had birthed her in a hospital, she would still be the child she is today. I think that even if she slept in a crib, and I HAD let her cry, that she would most likely still be the child she is today. Because *I* am her parent. Because *I* am still who *I* am, she would still be who she is because I'm the one raising her.

And here's where the philosophy comes full circle, if you can follow my strange thought pattern:

But it's BECAUSE I am who I am that she WAS birthed at home, nursed, and slept beside me. It's BECAUSE I'm her mother that she will be unschooled. It's because *I'm* the one parenting her that she will turn out to be who she is...

Now, I'm not saying that she doesn't have her own personality and all that...what I'm saying is that it dawned on me that those of us who unschool, or homeschool, or any kind of school don't have a monopoly on the brightest, happiest kids. And most parents love their children just as much as we do. There are public school kids who are well-adjusted and turn out as good as can be. And I bet there are some great parents behind them. And of course there's always the exception with the bad parents and kid who overcame, just as there's the vice versa.

But in the end, the reason we choose to unshcool may have less to do with wanting our kids to succeed, than to do with OUR desire to be the BEST parents WE can be, and finding that we can do no less than completely trust our child to know what's best for themselves.

I really DO wish my child slept through the night, took 2 hour naps, and woke up happy EVERY time. But the only way I KNOW of insuring this (short of having a naturally happy-go-lucky baby instead of the high-needs ones I did!) would be to let them cry until they give up hope.

And this is something I simply CAN NOT do. Not because I think my kid will be haunted by it forever. Most kids who CIO seem fine. You couldn't find them in a crowd and pick them out against the kids who co-sleep. But it's because every fiber in my being will NOT let me listen to my child cry for me and not respond. It's because my instinct demands I affirm his need for me.

And for this reason, I choose to unschool. My kids MAY not be the most intelligent, they may not be the most versatile, they may not be the best ANYTHING.

But they WILL be what THEY want to be, whatever it is. And they will know, beyond ANY shadow of a doubt, that I am ALWAYS there for them and will cheer them on to ANYTHING they should strive for....

And today, as I needed to get away from my kids for JUST a half hour walk by myself....Today, as the twins (14 months) kept climbing on me and crying for goodness knows why (teething? growing pains? just toddler angst?)....Today, when I actually get jealous of the moms who CIO or the parents who send their kids to school for the free time they get in return...

Today I reaffirmed MY reason for taking the road less traveled...

Deb

[Sandra Dodd]

I like what you wrote. I have some comments for posterity (or somebody).

-=-I co-sleep and nurse on demand, throughout the night, and my kids have never napped well.-=-

You didn't define "nap well." :-)
I'm guessing it means sleep hard on a schedule. But why should a baby sleep when he's not sleepy? Some of mine hardly napped at all, ever. Well, not counting sleeping in the car, or falling asleep while nursing.

-=-Sometimes homeschoolers will wave the facts about inventors and geniuses who were homeschooled...as if every child who learns at home will turn the world upside down...-=-

I think it's like holding a cross up to ward off vampires. It's a "back off" gesture to people who want to threaten them with the utter failure of their "drop-out" children.

-=-I really DO wish my child slept through the night, took 2 hour naps, and woke up happy EVERY time. But the only way I KNOW of insuring this (short of having a naturally happy-go-lucky baby instead of the high-needs ones I did!) would be to let them cry until they give up hope.-=-

I don't think crying it out insures anything about sleeping, but it does insure that the bond of trust will be broken. The baby won't want the mom much at all after a while, and the mom already doesn't want the baby as much as she would if she surrendered herself to the smell of his head and his smallest whimper of need.

Generous, attentive parenting builds on itself.

[laura bowman]

i know this won't help. because when someone told me this years ago, i just smiled, and hoped they were right. but in the moment it didn't really help. but here it is anyway...in about 4 or 5 years you are going to feel like you are on vacation. i was right where you are, i had a 5 year old, a 2.5 year old, and a new born. i was overwhelmed and tired and my husband worked a lot of hours. i was always holding someone, reading, playing, feeding, nursing. it was exhausting. i never thought that my life would be easier if i made less AP type choices, or if i chose school. i don't remember ever taking much time to think about anything...LOL...i was just busy doing. people would tell me that i needed to fill my tank back up, that i was depleted and couldn't be a good mom that way. they were right, still at the time i never listened. i didn't think i had very many options. i know better now, but then i just didn't. taking time for yourself is wonderful. but i'd also like to say that this time won't last forever. it really won't. it's fleeting. my kids are now 13, 10.5, and 8 and for a few years now i've had more time for myself than i know what to do with. it feels weird some days. but i'm still always available for them when they need or want me. but i think back on what i was told that day years and years ago, and how true it is. i'm glad i at least believed it even if it didn't help me in the moment. had i not believed it maybe i would've given up my ideals for the sake of getting a break. i don't know. anyway, i'm glad you're hanging in there and reminding yourself of what is really important to you. yeah you!!! yeah me!!! yeah for our kids!! yeah for all of us!!! have a celebration today just because!!!! =)

[Katherine]

I think the reason I'm not a CIO parent is I really do want to build a closer relationship with my child, and even though I could do it to some degree without attachment parenting practices, I feel that for me and who I am (as you've pointed out about yourself) it works best the way I'm doing it.... for me and, because of my experience and what I believe about it, I think it was best for Karl that way. It seems to me that he enjoys the closeness as much I do.

Sure people can be happy without the kind of closeness that comes with attachment. It is a choice to bridge the gap. I could be happy over here with bottles and all kinds of CIO techniques (if I hadn't been drawn to AP thoughts) and Karl could be well cared for with no other existence to be envious about. And our relationship would have a different quality to it even though we're the same people there that we are here in this existence.

It is mindboggling how tired one can get always being there for your kid. Karl, who's 5 now, is a very different child than he was a baby-- different as to the amount and the kind of attention he wants. Unlike when he was a baby, he can tell me in words too about what he wants as well as the cues and body language we've always relied on, which makes it easier for him to get more of what he wants and for me to be more accurate instead of searching around not feeling sure what he wants. It bugged me that I wasn't a good guesser but he was my first. I have more experience now and it might help a little with another child... who will be different and unique from Karl but still need to eat, sleep, and have clean diapers.

I don't know how mobile your kids are yet but when Karl became more mobile, things started to ease up a bit and I was like *hooray!* and could enjoy him more in different ways. About 18 months old, he was beginning to be really insistent about saying things just the way he wanted to (and couldn't), and it threw me for a loop but in a few weeks he had settled into some ideas that worked for him. As he got older there were more and more things to enjoy about him than there were before, so our lives together grew and changed very quickly over the next couple of years. And of course now at a little older than 5, in the matter of just a few months there's hardly any babyishness left the way I remember it and, the perverse mother that I am who can't make up her mind and be fine without being in constant demand (which really is hard!), I want another baby. ;) I do know what I'm asking for so it'll be hilarious if we decide to do that whole round again.
___

[Tracy Liebmann]

Wow...you've got me thinking too! I have a different prespective because I started this parenting journey out totally clueless! I didn't know what I believed, I didn't know myself because of the abuse I suffered as a child. I just *knew* with every fiber of my being that I wanted to do things different, better, more connectedly and loving than the way I was treated. I went from there, I knew nothing about AP over 13 years ago, I just knew if my baby cries she needed me to help her get what ever she needed :-)
Now about schooling, I became a teacher for the same reasons, I wanted to help children have the best lives they could have...soon I found that was not going to happen in school...that was before I ever had kids. Yet, still not knowing myself or better yet trusting myself enough, I sent my little girl to the "best" school I could find...she did OK at school. It was my wonderfully intouch with himself son who MADE me pay more attention, he demanded better from me, he demanded better than school! I am proud to say my son is a kindergarten drop out...he lasted less than 2 weeks and we were done! My daughter was in 3rd grade and I invited her to come home with us, she stayed at school til the end of winter, then she decided to come home...YIPEE...I was thrilled and still am :-)
So, I guess as lame as it may be...my kids truely decided to unschool themselves, I was the one who found the name for it and studied online and at conferences so that I could unschool with them...lol. My kids have taught me so much about myself, being authentic, and true love. I have always followed my heart and listened to my kids and for that I am very proud. Yeah for me...just like my bud Laura said.
I unschool for both my kids and myself and I LOVE IT!!

[Sarah]

It's reassuring to reaffirm that to yourself, isn't it? To know that what you're doing as a parent is the right thing for you and your children?

I do have one point to address, though - you said that you aren't able to pick children who CIO out. The difference is likely negligible for bf babies or hospital birthed babies, true - I doubt I could pick those out, either, but babies who've had their bond with their parents broken that bit by CIO? I can usually, if pressed, pick them out after I've spent time with them and know what is 'usual' behavior for them.

On both sides of our family we have parents who CIO and parents who don't. From the age of 6 months on, you could start to see a difference in the children. Now that they're toddlers and young children, the difference is more pronounced - the difference being the bond they have with their parents. (Of course, those parents who CIO are more likely to be those parents who punish, also, breaking their bond even more.) I can only assume (yeah, I know) that as teenagers the difference will be quite pronounced when you look at their relationship with their parents compared to a child who was raised respectfully and paid attention to and had their needs met.

My three kids have been all over the board when it comes to sleeping, BTW. The first slept through the night very early (scary, actually), took two three hour naps during the day, would stay asleep when you moved her from the car seat to the bed, etc. My second? Not so much. Happy, HAPPY kid, but I really don't know when she slept. She didn't start napping more than 15 minutes at a time until she was 11 months old. My third is a mixture. He doesn't sleep through the night, he naps for abt 45 minutes several times a day, when the mood hits him, won't nurse to sleep.

Like you said, what you're doing is letting your child be who they are and, in doing so, keeping your connection with them strong. THAT is why I do what I do. Not to have a 'good' or 'easy' child, but to know that I am creating an environment that will give my child the best chance possible to be who they are.

[Heidi Snavley]

I can tell a difference between my unschooled children and children who don't have the same bond with their parents. It doesn't mean that they are scarred for life because of their upbringing but they certainly do not have the same trust for their parents that mine have for me. I'm around kids that are constantly manipulating the adults in their life to get their wants and needs met. My children don't have to do that.

It's little things like this for me: Last night my son wanted to know if I knew what Twitter was- well, I didn't so he spent some time informing me, lol. It's kind of like a blog but you only post little tid bits about what you are doing at any given moment, kind of like a way to let people know what you are up to. You can have it linked to your phone, etc. He really wanted to have me on there so he set me up, added me to his friend list, and put me on follow; which means that every time I update mine he gets a message on his phone and every time he updates his I get a message on my phone. That's trust. He wants me to know what he is up to. He likes sharing his life with me. I honestly don't know that many kids, outside unschoolers, that have that connection with their parents, and I hang out with dozens of teenagers every day.

The other big difference I see is just a general passion for life and learning. I know that there are plenty of public schooled kids who do have passionate lives but I see a lot less of it in the public school arena. When I'm around unschoolers I see a LOT of it. Just a general excitement for figuring out the world around them v. the drudgery of going to school and homework, blah, blah. Learning hasn't become a chore for my children like it has for so many kids. It's not about being smarter or better, it really does come down to building an incredibly trusting, healthy relationship with my kids.

My daughter told me yesterday that she knows she is going to be the best mom in the world because she is being raised by the best mom in the world. I certainly didn't feel that way about my mom. I was constantly writing down all the things I WASN'T going to do with my kids because of the way she did things and the way it made me feel when I was growing up. And I was raised the "cry it out" way, the "you have to be on a strict schedule, get good grades, do things a certain way" way. I didn't feel very honored or trusted and I certainly didn't have much trust for them. As adults we worked through it and she ended up being my best friend but there was some scarring on the way there. I think that is also why I hate the term "turned out". We are never "turned out". It's a journey and we are constantly evolving.

Well, just some of my thoughts on it. I have a lot more but I will spare you all:)

[Heidi Snavley]

"On both sides of our family we have parents who CIO and parents who don't. From the age of 6 months on, you could start to see a difference in the children. Now that they're toddlers and young children, the difference is more pronounced - the difference being the bond they have with their parents."

And as teens it is VERY pronounced! This is where I see the biggest difference. I just wanted to add this one more thing, as I got to thinking about it more. It sounds like your children are fairly young and I remember feeling similar when my kids were small. I sometimes felt that our lives were a little chaotic because of the lack of strict schedules, etc. I also remember feeling like my children weren't very well behaved a lot of the time (compared to what society expected of them) because I didn't force them into submission and I let them have constructive arguments with me, which didn't always go over so well with people who didn't get it. My children are now 16, 13, and almost 10 and I'm am SO thankful for our attachment parenting, unschooling lifestyle. The lack of trust that I see with teens and their parents is HUGE and I'm not having the same struggles that most parents are having. Just about every day I hear conversation around me about parents struggles with their teens (I've been working in a coffee shop) and what their solutions are (taking away cell phones, taking away computers, grounding, etc) I just don't have those struggles at all. My worst day would be having a small disagreement with my child about politics or something:) It's a good feeling to really be your children's friends and share the kind of bond with them that when they need help they come to you. Not that my teens don't go to their friends too, just like any normal teen, but they usually share those things with me also. They really do see me as their support and help, not their adversary. So maybe as your kids grow older you will begin to see the difference between your kids and those kids that you are talking about.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- Unschooling is not this child-centered lifestyle.-=-
What "this"?


-=-Everyone should have their needs met.-=-
It turns out that mothers need to be, and feel like, good mothers. If mothers "have their needs met" at the expense of their children's peace and confidence, the relationship between the parent and child can start to unravel and then there's WAY more neediness.

[Debbie Penley]

Yeah, I usually DO rest in the comfort that "this, too, shall pass." Because I KNOW that I will, believe it or not!, miss it when I look back. And I know for a fact I won't regret a single moment I have spent with them...

Right now they are almost 6, just turned 4, and the 14 mo. twins. So it's a constant energy...and many days I'm fine, but then along comes one or two when I just want time to myself again...just for a bit :)

I'm glad to hear you say it gets easier. I'm really looking forward to this year as I know with my other two that as they hit that second year mark, everything got easier as they talked and could also understand WHY I won't let them walk into the road by themselves!

Deb

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- i had a 5 year old, a 2.5 year old, and a new born. i was overwhelmed and tired and my husband worked a lot of hours. i was always holding someone, reading, playing, feeding, nursing. it was exhausting. -=-

Me too. I remember being hungry and needing a shower many times and hoping my husband would come home *right then.* I was in a babysitting co-op of La Leche League leaders and steady longterm ("longterm" two years in my case) members, and that was VERY helpful, in seeing how calmer moms handled situations, and having those other families to spot me if I really needed some time, and having their kids to come play with mine (which always helped).

-=-my kids are now 13, 10.5, and 8 -=-

When mine were that age, my husband was living in Minneapolis and working. It started when the kids were 5/8/11, and was going to last six months. The six months was extended another six months for FOUR YEARS. Their dad only came home once a month (though he would work ten hours days so he could come home for nine days when he did come home). We got a new, bigger house out of the deal, and several family visits to Minnesota (also a condition of the contract), where we camped out in his tiny one-bedroom apartment. Those years were hard for me. The babysitting co-op was long gone.

Mine are now 16, 19 and 22. I can eat or take a shower ANYtime. I used to feel absolutely sweatily touched out and thought if another sticky hand touched me I might scream. But now I have to kinda make an appointment to hang out, and the hugs and hand-holding I get send a charge through me, because on the other end, you'll miss all that physical contact.

I recommend breathing deeply and thinking grateful thoughts and giving your children as much of you as they want. You won't regret it.
http://sandradodd.com/breathing
http://sandradodd.com/nest

[Debbie Penley]

Yeah, by "nap well" I did mean long, predictable naps. And technically, I actually don't mind the way my kids nap because I have to freedom to go places and if they fall asleep, fine. If they don't, fine - they will later. And nursing them to sleep is easier than not, so that's okay with me, too.

But there ARE times when I HAVE wished for a longer nap time or a guarenteed break, and it's just not there. I have read somewhere that the way you treat your children while they are babies is how they will treat you when you are old. I hope this is true, both because I have given them all of me most of the time, and because I truly will be saddened if they grow up to leave me with un-caring people. But I do think of it as if I was in their shoes, and I can do no different than what I do, because it's how *I* would want to be treated.

Deb

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- It doesn't mean that they are scarred for life because of their upbringing but they certainly do not have the same trust for their parents that mine have for me.-=-

I think that's a scar. They might not be debilitated for life, but there are scars.

Oh, Heidi. Reading what you wrote stirred my emotions in an uncomfortable way. This...". And I was raised the "cry it out" way"

I have to say that there are worse things than "cry it out." I wasn't even allowed to cry. The "rule" and constant threat was "Shut up or I'll give you something to cry about." When I was 19 years old my mom had an "oops" baby. A boy. He's in his 30's now, an alcoholic, fetal alcohol syndrome (lack of conscience; difficulty synthesizing information). One morning I saw her spank him hard, because he woke up before she did, and was sitting in his crib crying. I was stunned.