Am I Doing it Wrong?

[Christy]

I learned of the idea of Unschooling/Radical Unschooling about six months ago. Some days I think I am getting it and then other days I feel like I am ruining my children! I totally get the "school" part of Unschooling. I was a teacher and I have always known I didn't want my chilren to go to PS, so that part is pretty easy. My main problems are with the parenting part.
I have three girls (4 1/2, 2 1/2, 1). We have always been pretty laid back parents, but we did have rules and we used timeout with them. Well, that has all changed since we have discovered RU. We no longer have a bedtime, which was REALLY hard at first, but now seems natural. We haven't used timeout in months.
I feel like my kids have become more disresepctful than they were before. My 2 1/2 year old has started hitting, kicking and I just say, "We don't hit." Tonight she pushed the baby down just out of the blue for no reason, and I really didn't know what to do. I really feel helpless at times because I don't know how to make her understand not to do the things she is doing without punishing her (timeout).
Tonight I was talking to my mom on the phone and she told me she was worried about my kids because they aren't held accountable for their actions and they have no responsibility. I really didn't know what to say, it just makes me question my parenting and wonder what I am doing wrong. My girls stayed the weekend with her last weekend and she said my four year old wanted to take a bath after playing outside and she just threw her clothes in the floor and said, "My mommy and daddy let me throw my clothes where ever I want to." My mom told her that her mommy and daddy weren't there and would she please pick up the clothes and put them where they go. She said she complained about it, but she did pick them up. That has made me question the fact that I don't make them clean up. I read on one of the RU lists I am on that the mess is my problem if it bothers me, and that made sense to me, so if something is in the floor I just pick it up instead of making it a big deal.
My mom and I started talking about my 2yr old and her hitting and she said my 4 yr old went to timeout when she was little and the 2yr old doesn't know what timeout is, so maybe that is the problem. I am not confident enough in my parenting to defend it I just start questioning everything.
I really need some advice!! THANKS to anyone who made it through this whole rambling post and I appreciate any advice you have.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

** My 2 1/2 year old has started hitting, kicking **

2 is sounding like a familiar age for hitting ... and after Googling "typical behavior 2 year old hitting" it pops up. This is a list from the Kentucky Social Services:

Wants exactly what he wants when he wants it.
Will not usually give in.
Everything has to be done just so.
Likes to give orders.
Has trouble making decisions; wants to be inside but wants to be outside at the same time
Wants to continue doing whatever he is doing no matter what.
Wants things to always be just the way they have always been; may accept new things but wants to keep the old things too.
May begin to bite.

** and I just say, "We don't hit." **

Which is a lie and she knows it! ;-) Obviously at least one person in the family hits! Do try to avoid "we" statements. She's a separate person.

She's hitting for a reason and the quicker you focus on what she wants the lower her frustration. But do preface it with information. She's not being bad on purpose. She just doesn't know what to do with the emotions that are swirling around inside her. She might even know you don't want her to hit, but inside her she's reacting to her feelings and blocking out rationality. She really can't figure out what to do and hitting is at least a release.

Do let her know your personal boundaries. "Hitting hurts me. What do you want?" "Say Mommy if you want my attention. What do you want?"

Do be aware that you can't fix this stage. You can't magically transform her into a 3 yo with the proper words! ;-) Be sympathetic to her struggle but do help her with handouts of better tools so they're in her awareness for when she's able to use them.

** Tonight she pushed the baby down just out of the blue for no reason **

Yes, she did have a reason. It might not be a reason you'd agree is a good one, and I'm sure an older person would have a repetoire of better responses to choose from, but her reasons were valid to her. Her emotions just overwhelm her and she doesn't know what to do with them.

I'd go scoop the baby up and focus on that problem *not* what caused it. You might try involving her with soothing the baby, asking her if she has some ideas on how to help the baby. Don't demand the information from her. Ask in honesty. Ask what helps her when she falls down.

But do be sensitive to her. If she's able to switch to the baby's pain, that's helpful. If not, don't make her or you'll turn the baby into a punishment. Try to figure out what she needs. If she says the baby was in her way or something that doesn't sound like a good enough reason, trust that it is valid to her. It's her way of communicating something. Often feeling disconnected from mom and the need of more one on one is one cause.

Also don't leave her alone with the baby. Be more present. That's not said in a tone of "It's your fault if she pushes the baby." It means that you're the baby's first line of defense. You can't trust a 2 yo to control her emotions. The more you're present, the more you can pick up on moods that might be leading to some incident that you can redirect by taking the baby off or finding the 2 yo something even better to do.

Conventional parenting treats rules like remote parents, as though we can hand kids what they're supposed to do and have the kids just do it without us being present. That's unreasonable and just leads to anger and frustration. It's setting kids up to fail. Set them up to win :-) but it does mean being more present with them.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

(continued ... ran out of room ;-)

** I really feel helpless at times because I don't know how to make her understand not to do the things she is doing without punishing her (timeout). **

Punishments don't make them understand either. They often make kids want to avoid the punishment, but not necessarily by avoiding the behavior! Often the behavior disappears out of the parents' sight. Or it transforms into something else that there isn't a rule about. When someone sets up a barrier, it's not a normal or good response to shrug and give up. Yet that's what we want kids to do. A healthy response is "How can I get around that so I can get to what I want."

And punishments *seem* to work. But they coincide with a child getting older and growing in understanding. You've got a vague idea that your 4 yo is better than your 2 yo because she had time outs. But your 4 yo has had twice as many years on the planet. Your 2 yo is probably barely verbal, let alone a master of what she's feeling let alone what to do with it. And, if you 4 yo didn't hit, it's more likely because of different personalities. My daughter didn't seem to have read the development books ;-) 2 was actually a wonderful year for her. 3, which for most kids is easy, was hard for her.

In fact it's better not to even think in terms of her not understanding. That's a trap most parents fall into: Either they don't understand and I need to explain it for the dozenth time. Or they understand and just don't care. It *seems* like those are the only two answers.

The truth is they're often just not able to draw on the knowledge in the moment. They need help. She's got this big emotion inside her and she doesn't know what to do with the emotion. She may know hitting might make you mad if you see it, but she can't pull up out of the chaos of emotion what to do instead to get her to her goal. So she hits. At least that does *something*.

** Tonight I was talking to my mom on the phone and she told me she was worried about my kids because they aren't held accountable for their actions and they have no responsibility. I really didn't know what to say, it just makes me question my parenting and wonder what I am doing wrong. **

You could say that while there are rough patches that you're seeing a lot of benefits in other areas and if it stops working, you'll do something else. And then move on to another topic. Don't let her involve you in a conversation about it, especially when you're not sure. What you're doing is making her nervous. She wants you to stop. If you project a lack of confidence, she's going to seize on that and push. Not because I know your mom ;-) but because it's just natural human reaction to being afraid and seeing weakness in what's making you afraid.

** My mommy and daddy let me throw my clothes where ever I want to." **

Very likely it's a response to being controlled and having the controls lifted. But she shouldn't be getting that message from your actions!

If she's forgetting and you're right there you can say "Hamper," to remind her.

If she's oblivious -- as my 17 yo is sometimes ;-) -- and you're there, say "Could you hand those to me so I can put them in the hamper?" (If she says no, you can react jokingly and say "Silly!" or something and pick them up yourself) or "Let's put those in the hamper." And put hampers where she's likely to shed clothes. Make it easy for her. In fact involve her in the process. If it's too hard to hang up a jacket, she might like a low set of pegs.

You might find a lot of help in "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk".

If you ask, do, of course, accept no as an answer. She either needs to feel the freedom of being able to say no or she might have something important going on in her life.

** She said she complained about it, but she did pick them up.**

Very understandable response to the release from control. You might want to help her think about being a guest in someone's house. Let her know that if grandma doesn't have a good time with her, she won't invite her over as often. You might want to bring up the clothes and mention Grandma's rules are a little different and that probably wasn't fun for her. Not as a lecture, but as information to help her make better decisions. And let her know she does have a choice about going so she can think about whether this time she willing to put up with Grandma's rules for a visit or whether it's not worth it this time.

[Candy Cook]

I loved the response. Thanks for sharing valuable insight. I've noticed that since I began lifting my thumb off of my 6 yr old son that there have been some extreme moments of tension. He is very verbal about what he wants to do. He has been using his new found freedom to tell me, "No." I have lightened up enough to understand that he just wants to test his new "powers," in many cases.

As for grandparents.... your situation was relatively easy. When my boys went to spend the night with grandma, she set the kiddie pool up outside for them. They stripped down completely and said, "Mommy lets us swim naked!!" LOL I'll tell ya, I caught h-e-double hockey sticks for that one.

[Meredith]

My mom and I started talking about my 2yr old and her hitting and she said my 4 yr old went to timeout when she was little and the 2yr old doesn't know what timeout is, so maybe that is the problem.

The difference more likely has to do with personalities and/or the number of kids in the house. Your 4yo didn't have as many siblings to deal with when she was 2. That's a Big difference to a very young child.

My girls stayed the weekend with her last weekend and she said my four year old wanted to take a bath after playing outside and she just threw her clothes in the floor and said, "My mommy and daddy let me throw my clothes where ever I want to."

Well, Do you? From the perspective of a 4yo, it may have been a true statement - it just wasn't phrased in a way you're comfortable hearing. Either of my kids could make the same statement and it would be true. My 15yo always puts his clothes in a laundry basket, though, except when he showers. For some reason he still drops his shorts on the floor, even though the rest of his clothes go in the basket. My 7yo will put her clothes in a laundry basket if one is handy when she's getting undressed. But I could see either one of my kids protesting, faced with a certain tone of voice and a statement like "you need to put those in the laundry, not drop them on the floor".

I feel like my kids have become more disresepctful than they were before.

This is a theoretical question and you don't have to answer it here, but what do you mean by "respect"? Its the sort of principle that's often composed of several values, misconceptions, expectations and fears all jumbled together, so its useful to pull it apart and see what you really mean by the word.

Young children don't have a whole lot of empathy and impulse control on a regular basis, so if self control and seeing from someone else's perspective are tied up in your idea of respect, you may not see much of that in your kids for awhile. You wouldn't see it with punishment either, though. Punishing children doesn't help them see different perspectives for sure. And, while it may lead children to change their behavior in the short run, over time that change will include more sneakiness and/or rebellion. That's probably not what you think of as respectful, either.

The more you work on proactively meeting your kids' needs the more you'll see them being able to be kind to one another. They'll have more energy available for communication that doesn't include hitting and shoving. They'll be more impulsively generous.

We haven't used timeout in months.

Congratulations!
I remember transitioning away from timeouts and feeling like I was floundering a lot of the time. I had the concepts in my head, but only about half the skills I really needed to learn in order to set me and the kids up for better interactions. I spent a lot of time thinking "okay, that didn't go so well, what could I do differently?" It helped me to think over those less successful times after the fact, even if I ended up feeling like a bit of a dunce for missing cues and options that were totally obvious. It helped me for the next time around.

Tonight she pushed the baby down just out of the blue for no reason, and I really didn't know what to do.

Looking back, what did you miss? Was the 2yo hungry? tired? frustrated? feeling left out? Does she go through cycles of impulsive hitting etc interspersed with "better" behavior? For some kids, stress will build over hours or days until its suddenly released, so the "trigger" can seem utterly minor compared to the reaction.

Joyce had good suggestions for how to react after the fact, but the more you can do *before* the better for everyone in the family. That was the biggest challenge for me, shifting away from punishment. Punishment is all about "what do you do when xyz?" Gentle parenting starts long before xyz ever happens.

[Sunfairie]

Hi Christy
I am new on this journey too...
Just wanted to thank you for bringing up this topic more so the point of hitting as I have a hitter at home too.

SO I am grateful for all the great tips to read here for this situation...

We too, parents, are learning all the time ;)

[Sunfairie]

Do let her know your personal boundaries. "Hitting hurts me. What do you want?" "Say Mommy if you want my attention. What do you want?"

Thank you Joyce for these words...I am going to add it to my parenting tool belt ;)

what do you think of John Holts recommendations of "Are you trying to test me?"
and "Are you trying to make me angry?" in his book teach your own?
I have tried this with my daughter when she is having a rough moment and it has stopped her and made her think and given me a second to breathe and parent better and more peacefully.

I have also tried and..I cannot remember who here recommended this...is hugging and loving when she is angry it really helps diffuse the anger quite magically for us...

[Meredith]

"Are you trying to test me?"
and "Are you trying to make me angry?"

I see those as pretty leading questions for a young child - "gee, mom I hadn't thought of that, am I supposed to be trying to make you angry?" Asking what your child wants is more direct, and it does ask her to stop and think about her own motivations, but in a more neutral way, rather than handing her a reason that's adversarial as a first-choice.

Maybe those sorts of questions would be appropriate for an older child or teen who was still deschooling, but I don't know. We never asked Ray those kinds of questions when he was deschooling, we asked "what were you hoping would happen?" and "do you need some help?" and "what do you want?" At first those floored him - he was used to "why did you do that?" so the shift to asking about his needs, wants and hopes was startling and affirming. Suddenly those needs, wants and hopes were Important to someone besides him.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

I suppose those two questions could be asked as real questions, but I know if someone asked me those they would sound like those snotty rhetorical questions people ask when the answer to them is obviously yes. I like Meredith's approach. Her questions come across as very respectful.

[Joel C]

Can someone please explain to me how allowing a child tell you No when a request is made is a good thing? Joyce said she lets her 17 yr old daughter tell her what and when she is or isnt going to do. How or why is that a good thing and how is that child supposed to learn about personal accountablility/responsibility?

[Sunfairie]

great :) thank you for your thoughts....

[Sunfairie]

hhmmm OK I follow....
asking the questions you wrote do seem much more neutral and peaceful... thank you for working this out with me...

[Heather Greek]

Joel,As an adult if someone requests something from me, I have the choice to say yes or no.
Everyone has a choice.
If you *request* a child to do a thing...it becomes a demand if they say no?Then it's a powerplay. Why not model the same respect and get it in return? The more i respect Lukas the more he does me. He actually starts cleaning on his own and asks me if he can do the dishes...he's only 7.