BARBIE DOLLS-- never mind! barbie blockade is over! thank you all!

[Jacob Seligmann]

Ok. I know the answer. Let her have them. Play with her with them. Let her love them. Let her be who she wants and don't make her ashamed or hide from you about who she wants to be. I agree. But the barbie dolls, the bratz dolls, hannah montanna???? PLEASE!!! HELP!!!!

naomi is 4 and we've never had disney princesses or barbie dolls or any of that crap in the house. that's because i was intent on not having them. i know. i'm a limiter. help me unlimit. but be nice. i've not been doing this unschooling thing more than 2 or 3 years and radical is just gaining traction. But i don't want the barbies and bratz and princesses!

I guess i should explain more, but it's a long story kind of. Anyway, she knows how i feel about them, she knows why. We talk about it every time we encounter them (everywhere!) And i know she is more interested in them because i've stopped them from coming in the house and made such a big deal about them. But what am i supposed to do??? I can't stand the images and what they stand for. There is research that shows that all kinds of body image problems come form playing with all these thin, sexed out dolls. And disney is full of terrible examples of girls and what they need and i've done a lot of research about it... it's awful... My thought process, and please, be gentle, is that if i can keep this crap away from her during these formative years, then when she finally gets the stuff that i've restricted it will be too late for it to have such a lasting negative effect ( i know, you'll say that my limiting her and making her hide a part of herself will have a much more lasting and negative effect than if i just let her have the dolls and movies)... or at that point she won't be interested... and finally... no one really knows ... i'm doing the best i can. my intentions are good and of course i'll be told i'm overlaying my fears... fears that my daughter will be sucked into the corporate commercialized culture and turn into a ditzy sexed up little doll herself. But of course no doll can do that, it's a doll coupled with a father or parents who don't give support and love which create that kind of situation, right? or something like that... ok.. .don't mean to answer for you all... being a bit of a wise ass...

BUT I DON"T WANT BARBIE!!!

so let's say i allow all the barbie she wants, well, of course then we get into another issue of how many barbie's? They cost money after all... there's another limit! But when they're in the house and she's all dolled up, what am i going to do? I have to pretend that it's all ok with me... "Oh sweety, it's ok, all that stuff i said about barbie dolls doesn't matter, you like them, i want you to be comfortable expressing yourself and if you love barbie and disney princesses than gosh darn, you should play with them... and you know what, i'll play with them with you. let's go girl." ????

see, it's a bit of a problem... another dilemma... how do you let the kids be who they want to be and still be honest.. which i assume you'd all agree is important too right? honesty? being real... i'm the one who puts up shows with naomi all the time and we make them up together and i speak for a lot of the characters... so what do i do now? I don't like barbie or princesses, i don't want to play with them... do i pretend that i do? do i put it on just for her? don't i count? radical unschooling isn't about making it ALL ABOUT THE KIDS with NO REGARD to us is it? I mean,,, if i'm going to spend all this time playing and putting up shows, shouldn't I, in the real world or real people, be entitled to be having fun too? Does naomi get to choose all the characters, all the topics, plots etc? Or are we being real? Here we are... two people. Daddy and Naomi. I get to say what i like to don't i? I don't want her to think that life is all about what she wants and no one else's desires should be taken into consideration right? I'm already doing a lot of stuff i wouldn't necessarily want to do if this weren't my daughter. Do i need to subjugate my will, my likes and dislikes entirely to please her? I'm a practicing buddhist but am I practicing total egolessness with my daughter? Is that teaching her a good lesson about dealing with the rest of the world? Do these question make sense to anyone in the context of the Barbie Dolls? Can anyone offer me some advice? Without too much condesention?

Thank you all in advance.

[JennyStar]

If every hour a parent has spent frightening a child about the future of the planet had been spent soothing and singing with that child, that would be better for the present and the future both.

This idea is so central to raising whole children! If your child grows up whole and healthy, without a big needy hole inside of them, like so many adults I know, they can DO things. If they are seeking to fill that big needy hole created by lack, they don't get to spend their time making the world a better place.

Whole and healthy children that grow into whole and healthy adults WILL spend their time doing amazing things. The sheer amount of energy that is used to fill neediness, is huge and life draining and relationship destroying, and selfish making. If no big needy hole is ever created, the focus can be on truly living life, big expansive awesome LIFE!

Chamille and I were talking about this last night. She was wondering if her boyfriend will grow up with a big needy hole inside of him because of the way he is treated in his home by his parents. He calls his dad a proffessional hobo since he works in plastic recycling and is very passionate about it, yet, he sometimes treats trash better than his own son.

I'd rather have a million plastic pikachus than a child with a big needy hole inside of them because I refused to by one because it was made from plastic.

[majikfaerie]

okay, so at first I was willing to think that you were actually replying to other people on this thread, but you specifically aimed it at me.

and you both seemed to conveniently ignore the fact that I said
"Thanks for clarifying your point. I don't think it was clear in your first post. I absolutely agree with you..."

I *do* agree with you. I simply missed the point of your post, which I thanked you for clarifying.

To Joyce's:
"But what if they choose not to?"
well, I'm fine with that. That would be my child's choice. I am absolutely about raising children who will grow up aware of their impact on the planet and it's implications. If they choose to do things differently, well, that's their choice. But it will be an aware choice *shrug*.

Personally, I boycott Nestle. I don't believe for a second that me not buying cheerios is going to stop the unethical marketing of formula to mothers in developing nations. But my activism is important to me - I make my own choice about not supporting that company. My child knows my reasons. She makes her own choices. I'm not shoving my dogma down her throat every minute, and in fact, she chooses to buy Nestle KitKats and Nestle cereal sometimes. That's her choice and I support her in it.

You're really preaching to the wrong person. But I was willing to assume you said it anyway for the general purpose of sharing your thoughts with everyone who might read this.

But Sandra:
"Joyce was clear to me. To tell a child he will save the planet by giving a plastic Pikachu away is nonsense. The Pikachu still exists, it's just the child is now filled with something false--guilt or pride or a feeling of accomplishment that will muddle his thinking more than clarify it."

Here you're mixing up something I said with something someone else said, I guess. A agree that giving away plastic toys is useless. they still exist. Who said that anyway? I said that not getting a new one in the first place if another source could be found *would* make a difference. A very small difference, yes, but millions of us doing that creates a big difference.

If every hour a parent has spent frightening a child about the future of the planet had been spent soothing and singing with that child, that would be better for the present and the future both.

This is absolutely true, but don't assume that every parent who ever told their child about the state of the planet is frightening them.

When my child was about 16mo, we moved to a big city. She was just starting to walk everywhere and had almost no experience of busy roads and cars. I explained to her very clearly what cars are, about people walking on footpaths and cars on the road, that the curb signifies the boundary, and that if a car hits you it will hurt a lot. then I let her walk, run and be free when we were going around places. she would run, laughing, jumping about like any happy toddler would. and she never once jumped out in front of a car like everyone told me she would. Because she knew the facts, and more than that; because I trusted her not to run in front of cars.
The information; that a car can really hurt you, is frightening. I didn't tell my child that to frighten her. I didn't spend hours and hours going on about it and I don't think she was frightened - merely made aware.

So yes. I tell my child that leaving lights on when we don't need them is wasting electricity. I don't tell her constantly. Once was enough, because she understands. and she understands because there is respect between us. We talk about where electricity comes from, and about greenhouse gases, about use vs. waste. It's not to frighten her, because lord knows I spend way more time singing and playing and all that. But if I would feel irresponsible if I never tell her about where electricity comes from, or that there's a perfectly good used pikachu in the thrift store next door, or used Barbies on eBay. Not to mention I'd be horribly poor! LOL

[Ren]

I don't have time to read all the responses tonight...as my children need me. But I can tell you what happened when my parents limited Barbie. First of all, it didn't make me like them less, I hid my feelings better.
A parents judement of an interest doesn't change the fascination inside the child, it DOES cause them to distrust themselves and hide their true feelings. Not exactly helpful to the parent/child relationship.

I learned that my fascination with the world of fashion wasn't good. That Barbies weren't good. That makeup wasn't good. Blah, blah, fricking BLAH. I love all of those things still. I make my career in the world of fashion as a makeup artist. I LOVE my work and my chosen career. It took me many years to learn how to trust myself again though. I NEVER, ever want to be a blockade to anything my children are interested in.

I know that it only damages their trust in themselves and their relationship with me. Those things (trust in themselves and our relationships) are FAR more important than some hang-up about Barbie or any other such uptight value judgment.

Read the history of Barbie and how she came into being before you get your knickers in a twist. She can truly be called a role model for young girls...who do NOT get their self-esteem or body image ideas from a doll by the way!! Young girls get messages about their bodies mainly from their parents. What messages do you send? How do you feel about your body? What things do you say about other people in your children's presence? Little comments and judgments about bodies and about your own self-image will affect your children more than Barbie!

Trust involves letting go of judgment and letting other people express themselves fully in your presence. Trust means that you support whatever they need to explore right now, today....because they won't always be right there to support! You have a gift, a child who is sharing her interests with you. Don't crap on it....passions and dreams can be fragile things at a young age. It hurts to have your parents crap all over what you love.

[Jacob Seligmann]

I agree. Thanks. The barbie blockade is over.

[Jacob Seligmann]

I agree. Thank you. Barbie blockade is over!

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-Blah, blah, fricking BLAH.-=-

Oh, Ren...
I'm glad you came to share your Barbie experiences. I'm only able to say "I never liked them but Ren did! and Holly did!"

You have politely or tactfully said that a parent's judgment causes a child to doubt herself. In my life, my self confidence was strong, and my mother's judgment caused me to doubt her, and then resent her, and eventually to ignore her opinion entirely. That never did hurt me, though, nor her, because her mothering instinct was never switched on well at all, though she had three children.

Jacob, I'm glad to hear the grey plastic battleships are out of the imaginary harbor so that Barbie can sail in on her pink plastic boat if she wants to. There might be less Barbie invasion than your advisors-in-studies-you-read predicted.

[Robyn L. Coburn]

A few comments...

There can be a danger in getting caught up in the idea of parents being "more powerful" than some item or idea in the child's life, such as a particular kind of toy.

For me it helps me to think not of my power in or over my daughter or her thinking, but in accepting that she, inside herself, is more powerful than any corporate idea, any media or cultural image. I have learnt to see her not as a malleable piece of clay that can be seriously and dangerously affected by malevolent outside forces, but as someone with (born with) a very strong personality and temperament that is much more apparent than a lot of traditional child development literature would have led me to believe.

It is not that I haven't had my struggles with ideas about harmful outside influences, in my case real people in the form other children, in my daughter's life. However as usual the stories and experiences of other unschooling parents with grown children, have set my mind at ease totally, by showing me that my fears are unfounded over the long term - or at least unfounded IF we are going to live an unschooling life of connection, mutual support and exploration.

In the end it is not me, or my ideas or principles, that have more power over my daughter's thinking than any negative, whether that be Barbie's, corporate America, television, the odd values or principles of other families, guns, games or girly clothing.

It is our relationship that ends up being where our collective strength comes from.

Having said that I will add that we adore Barbies, Bratz, Integrity Toys, American Girl, Karito Kids, Disney, Webkinz, Tonner dolls, Ellowynne Wilde, BJD's and a myriad of other handmade toys. My daughter appreciates all dolls for their beauty, artistry, and as the hooks for her vivid fantasy life.

Unlike the fears expressed by Waldorf proponents, the amount of detail (realistic or stylized) present has never been a hindrance to her imaginative play, or to her creativity in making almost as engaging toys out of pieces of cardboard, twigs and string.

My daughter's plan for her life is to be doll and toy designer, with a fantastic interactive website connected to her doll line that will make Webkinz look dreary. She plans on writing stories and books about the magical characters that she will be designing. She plans on having an amusement park based around the different lands on her website, and incorporating her doll museum, in which there will be a playroom for kids to be able to play with dolls that they might not have access to at home.

[JennyStar]

Unlike the fears expressed by Waldorf proponents, the amount of detail (realistic or stylized) present has never been a hindrance to her imaginative play, or to her creativity in making almost as engaging toys out of pieces of cardboard, twigs and string.

That's because kids have great imaginations!!! Margaux wanted a boy barbie, but she wouldn't let me purchase one for her, so she took a cheese grater and shaved off the boobs of one of her barbie, and cut it's hair. At first she called it her He/She barbie, but now it's the boy.

Perhaps it went and got itself a gender change... well, it actually did. She's quite clear about this doll being transgendered.

Kids have always surprised me with the way they play with toys in a not so traditional fashion, or the way they were intended!

[Ren]

Yes, yes Robyn!! Our children are born powerful and whole and who-they-ARE. Our job is to try and not muck it all up and make holes in their wholeness.:)