Boundaries and Unschooling as a lifestyle

[Sylvia Toyama]

I've seen a trend over the several years I've been reading unschooling forums that bothers me. There seems to be a belief that living as a radical unschooler means Moms (sometimes, Dads, too) aren't 'allowed' to have reasonable boundaries.

Moms show up at unschooling forums and ask if it's okay to set boundaries or limits for personal space with their kids, or if it's okay to physically remove a child who is teasing the dog, or how to break up fights between siblings. They want support for the idea that because they're unschooling, it's perfectly okay for little Joey to jump on Grandma's couch and scribble all over her walls with a sharpie marker; that it's okay for an unschooling child to repeatedly hit Mom for his own entertainment; or to continually interrupt conversations.

I just don't understand how this happened. Unschooling as a lifestyle doesn't mean allowing a child to run roughshod over everyone else in the household or the playground. Kids are going to grow up and live among other people. I want my kids to be able to negotiate that future well and happily.

I think it's helpful for my kids to learn that hitting someone just because his presence bugs you today is legally considered assault; that it's property damage to willfully (or even carelessly) break someone's couch; that it's graffiti to write one someone else's walls; that not everyone finds that off-color joke funny fifteen times, and if it has to do with race or sexuality or some other taboo topic, it might even be considered harassment.

I'm doing my kids a favor when I explain to them that a behavior they've chosen is not going to win them any friends. The reality is that at some point, someone will explain to them that what they're doing is unwelcome.- I'll be much kinder than anyone else would be. That's not to say I'm advocating the sing-song voice where Mom repeats "it's not nice to hit the dog" like a mantra as the child wails on the dog, but won't physically stop the child from hitting the dog. My child's heart won't break if I use a firm voice to say "Stop that. Now." then if needed, physically restrain him.

Is this unwillingness to call a child on unkind, hurtful, dangerous, socially unacceptable behavior a natural outgrowth of attachment parenting, or unique to unschooling families?

Reasonable boundaries aren't the same as unyielding rules -- respect for others' right and space is an essential principle for living with other people, even as a child.

[Monica Manzano]

Now I'm curious where these ideas come from and what they are connected to. I don't keep track of conversations and I'm not on a local Austin Unschooler list.

We had issues with 'dog treatment' but I jumped on that asap. I also jumped on ''kitchen protocol". Frankly, I almost get ugly when it comes to these two items.

About 3 years ago the boys took interest in cooking and baking. It began with boiling water for tea. We didn't have a kettle at the time. So I allowed them to use a boiling pot. Well they like to serve the tea over by the couch on a homemade Japanese table. The first time my eldest, then 11yo, tried to cross the living room with a boiling pot of water, I reacted. I believe I got in his face about. Yes, I told him 1st this is just not done. He placed it on the floor and got a ladel. he was about to pour....

To my way of thinking better that I train them on certain behaviors than wait so late that someone like the police do. I'm afraid some things can't wait until they grow up into logic stage of development.

Relating this to 'dog behavior' I might add, you wouldn't want a biting dog out loose leash. I researched 'viscious dogs' at Austin city website. I wouldn't want to be sued. I also wouldn't want the dog put down. Recently, the boys asked if they could walk the dog. But knowing that anything could happen and he get away from them. I bought a muzzle.

I don't want them out with the dog and he not be muzzled. It's not that I don't trust the children to manage him. It is that anything could happen.

We live in an apt community, we have some rules which I rail against also. For ex. I almost got fined for having a broom on the porch. I have to constantly be aware of rules.

We had some bullies about 4 years ago who chased my boys with a pipe and threatened them. I promptly called the police. Threats of harassment are not tolerated here either it's in the contract.

I haven't interacted with other unschooling families in such a long long time. I believe a majority of the South Austin homeschoolers are traditional school at home types. So my only exposure is what people write. On our few outings I've noticed in fact either a high degree of kid training or parent direction. To the point I suspect some kids do not pass go, do not collect ....

Did I digress? This is the nicer part of the day when I am energetic. Come later, look out.
Monica

[Alan Marshall]

Although, as with any group of people, there will always be a few unschoolers who act irresponsibly, I think for the most part the posters who ask those sort of “is it OK if I stop them” questions just feel confused because they are accustomed to handling conflicts and problems with conventional parenting techniques. They seem to often lack other tools to handle those kind of situations.

Usually the response of more experienced unschoolers is “of course you should stop unacceptable behavior, and here are some better ways to handle the situation or to prevent the situation from happening in the first place”. I’ve never seen anyone suggest that children should be allowed or encouraged to disregard the rights or safety of others.

The rule of thumb I have learned from reading on forums and lists is to consider how I would treat an adult guest in my home. If one of my adult friends were to tease a pet, mistreat one of my children, or start playfully hitting me without realizing I was being hurt, you bet I’d put a stop to it immediately. But words like “boundaries,” “limits,” and “training” would not enter into it. These words and the behaviorist way of thinking they encourage come from the vernacular of conventional parenting.

I’d probably just say something like, “Hey, leave my dog alone!” Then I could talk about how I feel animals should be treated, remind the person that we treat pets differently before he comes over the next time, or put the dog in the yard to prevent the same situation from arising in the first place. I certainly wouldn’t try to train an adult like a rat in a maze, and I’m not looking to train my children either.

In most cases, I would also respond to an adult in a way that would not only stop the unacceptable behavior, but would also seek to preserve the relationship I have with that person. Just because someone makes a mistake or offends my sensibilities is not license to disregard his feelings or mistreat him in return. This is exactly what occurs with conventional parenting, you were mean to the dog, or your sister, or to me, so now I am going to be mean to you. If I treated my friends like that I wouldn’t have very many friends for long, and I don’t want my relationship with my children to end up like that either.

I can hear the conventional response to that last paragraph, “You are not your children’s friend, you are their father.” That’s true. That is why I want to treat my children with even more kindness and respect than my friends, not less. If I mismanage a relationship with my friend it’s regrettable, but my friend can take care of himself and will move on and be fine. My relationship with my children is much more important. Why would I intentionally give them less consideration?

[Candy Cook]

If you've ever watched SuperNanny, you'll know that this is definitely not unique to unschool or even to attachment parenting. Assuming that some of the stuff on supernanny is real.

[Sylvia Toyama]

But words like “boundaries,” “limits,” and “training” would not enter into it. These words and the behaviorist way of thinking they encourage come from the vernacular of conventional parenting.

I don't use words like boundaries or limits or training with my kids, but that's what it is -- helping them to know everyone has a right to boundaries. Even Mom. Like you, I'm more likely to just say "hey! Stop that!" then if needed explain what/why. Often they already know why and what, they just forgot for a moment.

I do have one child who has difficulty with the whole concept of personal space. I have been known to say to him "that's a personal space violation" when he bugs his brother. With my other children I rarely need to address personal space, because they get it.

[Sylvia Toyama]

I've never seen more than a commercial for SuperNanny, but I recall those show lots of screaming kids throwing things at Mom or Dad.

Maybe it's just the backlash to generations of spanking kids for control.

[Andy Cronin]

Do you really want something to sink in because their afraid of the punishment? Making them scared of the consequences of "breaking a couch" doesn't seem fair. I'd rather them understand that the things they do are going to hurt someone's feelings and that they not do a particular behavior because they're being compassionate and don't want to hurt others. I'm not trying to be critical or harsh, it just seems like they'd end up w/ the wrong reasons to NOT do something. (I also understand that there are times when you can't explain everything, and have to just stop the behavior. But an explanation should follow later)

~Andy

[Meredith]

I think for the most part the posters who ask those sort of “is it OK if I stop them” questions just feel confused because they are accustomed to handling conflicts and problems with conventional parenting techniques. They seem to often lack other tools to handle those kind of situations.

This is my perception also - from reading and even, thinking back, from the days when I was still floundering around, trying to figure out how to do this fantastic, crazy thing I barely understood. I was still wrapped up in ideas of "good parenting" and kept wondering "is this right? Is this "good unschooling"?"

It helped me to think about things like passion and priciples - those were the ideas that got me past "is this Right?" to actually being authentic and kind and respectful.

I’ve never seen anyone suggest that children should be allowed or encouraged to disregard the rights or safety of others.

I think a casual reader, skimming posts here and there, could easily get confused, though. If someone is asking about a 3yo hitting, I'm going to write about low empathy and social skills as well as writing about modelling skills and being proactive and protecting others' safety, but to a parent who is used to reacting rather than being proactive, that could easily come across as "let the kid hit, he'll grow out of it".

[Meredith]

Unschooling as a lifestyle doesn't mean allowing a child to run roughshod over everyone else in the household or the playground.

No, but to someone who doesn't really get the underlying concepts of unschooling, if a parent isn't in control then the kids are in control. Unlimited tv is a child running roughshod over everyone else in the household, according to conventional wisdom. A child who doesn't want to eat a carrot is in the same category of personal danger as if that child wanted to drink bleach. Wanting to play with Barbie equals wanting to do heroin. Not brushing teeth equals playing in traffic.

Those kinds of extreme, nonsensical analogies are the "wisdom" of conventional parenting. Parents are bombarded with those messages - have been since we were kids. Longtime unschoolers know what sorts of things happen when limits are removed suddenly and all at once. Unfortunately, some parents try to jump into unschooling all at once but they're still thinking like conventional parents: if not one extreme then the other. So they move to the opposite extreme and assume if one piece of conventional wisdom is balderdash then all of it is. They're no different from kids who are suddenly told "not only do you not have to clean your plate, you can eat anything anytime you want!" so they start binging on cupcakes - these are conceptual cupcakes: jump on the couch! dance on the tables! harrass the cat and break the windows! All the childhood fantatsies of The Little Rascals come to life.

I know a mom who once read just a tiny bit of Hakim Bey - I think she read the flyleaf of T.A.Z., actually, not any part of the book. Lots of wild anarchist ideas. Fun stuff. So she decided to "try that" without having any idea of what was analogy, what was poetry, what was actually doable in real life. When I met her her kid was climbing on the counters whacking things with a hammer. Eventually she decided "this stuff doesn't work" and put her kid in school. Some of the folks new to unschooling go through a phase like that - hopefully not that bad - and some will decide that unschooling doesn't work as a result.

[Ren]

The word "training" indicates forcing a response on someone that is rather mindless. I want my children to use their inner guidance to help them decide whether something is appropriate in different situations, not be trained automatons that do what they've been "taught".

Yes, we share what different situations and people expect. Yes, we help them understand that we need to consider everyone's preferences. But I certainly don't advocate "getting in their face"...I'd much rather help them find a safe/appropriate place to do the things they want.

There's so much on this topic and I don't have the energy tonight. I believe children are reasonable, intelligent human beings that are like foreigners trying to figure out this world they've been born into. If we see ourselves as their translators, helping them get where they need to go and consider others in the equation, there's no need for "training" or "teaching" or any of those things.

[Alane]

"I’ve never seen anyone suggest that children should be allowed or encouraged to disregard the rights or safety of others."

I haven't seen this either. But I HAVE seen people who object to unschooling because they think that's what it's about. I have been guilty of explaining my parenting as "helping my kids to learn and do and get what they want." and it never occurred to me to add into that statement "without causing harm to others." It seemed to me that that should have been understood. But it sometimes isn't, as I've learned through people's response to my statement. I've had some intense conversations where people infer that unschooling will lead to selfishness.

What it seems like to me is that people view everything as a win/loose situation--that for one person to have freedom, it means someone else has to suffer. I've noticed lately that discussions have sprung up about "consentual living" as separate from RU. I'd always thought they went hand-in-hand.

I've always thought of unschooling as the freedom to live our lives, but not the right to mess up someone else's. That necessitates being aware of others' needs and desires as well as our own.

[Sylvia Toyama]

Do you really want something to sink in because their afraid of the punishment? Making them scared of the consequences of "breaking a couch" doesn't seem fair.

I also want them to be genuinely considerate of the feelings of other people, but it's not always that simple. Kids can't imagine that the couch will really break -- if it hasn't happened before, they're often sure it can't happen. And yes, at some point it becomes about property damage and consequences. If I allow them to break something that belongs to someone else it needs to be replaced -- at my/our expense. I've said "do you have $500 to buy Grandma a new couch? No? Then don't jump on her couch."

Not unfair, just reality.

[Kimzyn]

I agree with you, Sylvia. I think most experienced adults find a balance. It seems mostly people who are new to the concept who have a problem seeing where drawing the line on violence or destruction by a kid might be necessary. I think in most cases it can be done without being syrupy or too stern but I think your point is that newbies need to know it is okay to parent their child and convey to them that by living in this world we need to work together sometimes. Its not a one man show. Well, that is what I take out of your post anyway. It would be a great discussion for unschooling support groups, wouldn't it?