Children "need you to make choices for them"

[Jen]

I was asked to write a parenting column for a local blog about Radical Unschooling/Consensual Living. In the comment section, a women left the comment that "Children need parents to make choices for them because it makes them feel safe and secure."

My immediate reaction, of course, is, "My child DOES feel safe and secure!" But I'm pretty sure that's the along the same lines of "Nu-uh!!" Even after thinking about it though, I'm having a hard time articulating a response, so I thought I'd post here and see if you all could help me come up with a thought out response to this comment!

Thanks!

[Joyce Fetteroll]

** What could be more inconsistent with the idea of unschooling than to presume that readers cannot learn from each other without your corrective filter?**

Maybe this is clearer. At least it's shorter ;-) ...

It's not that I don't trust that people can think for themselves. I know they can. But I know that it's hard for me to critically analyze from a new point of view when my thinking is clogged up with the old thinking I want to get rid of.

By analyzing others' critical analysis, by being subjected to the same scrutiny, I learn faster and deeper. I'm able to weed out the old ideas that don't have a solid foundation, that were just accepted because they sounded like they made sense.

For some people, unschooling and relationship parenting makes intuitive sense so they may skip what I write. That's fine. But for others like me who felt structure and control make more intuitive sense than the seeming chaos of unschooling, I appreciated those like Sandra and Pam and others who took the time to critically examine unschooling ideas.

[Meredith]

James Marcus Bach said:

Hi Joyce,

I think I am writing generally useful advice. I'm sorry that it irritates you.

I think the best thing we can do is offer our own takes on these subjects and trust people to sort it out for themselves

Clarification is helpful, though. It helped me to understand the situation you first described (and your "take" on the subject of unschooling in general) better when you went into more detail, explained some of the thinking and family dynamics involved. Without all that extra information, it was hard for me to know if you were throwing a snit at your kid, or what - really, it was hard to tell. So I'm glad you went into more detail - and glad others asked questions and made comments that drew you out a bit.

One of the things that makes discussing radical unschooling difficult is that we're all sooooo invested in our lives and our relationships. We're talking about something really personal! and it can be hard to step back from that in order to learn something new, to gain some additional insights. So questions and comments can "feel" like a personal attack, when that's not the intention at all.

[Meredith]

"Okay, so Lenore is upset and she asks me for help. My first order solution is to remind Lenore that if she doesn't like doing things for people whom she feels don't appreciate it, she can just stop. I suspected that Oliver wouldn't want her to stop, and would then come to her and seek a deal. If that hadn't happened, we would have had to shrug and live with it, although I think I would also talk him about our feelings, just to make sure that he understood them. Family members do care about each other's feelings, too."

I wouldn't "just stop" without talking with everyone involved beforehand. It seems like a pretty harsh way to get a point across.

I wouldn't stop doing things for my 15yo stepson, or even bring up the topic in terms of stopping without looking for a Lot of other solutions first, since he's been through school and school at home and tends to take things personally. I mean he'd take it as "you are not worthy of my help" and feel bad, but not necessarily say or do anything directly to express that. Old baggage is something I have to watch for much more with him than my 7yo, who hasn't been through all that mess.

OTOH, my 7yo gets easily overwhelmed by things like tidying up - she tends to get all wrapped up in a project and make wayyyyyy more of a mess than she can handle on her own. So it wouldn't be helpful to her if I stopped picking up after her. She needs the help.

When my partner is feeling overwhelmed with the housekeeping, I chip in and help more. I'll set aside a chunk of time on the weekend to "catch up" with the living room and kitchen, in particular. It makes a big difference to the whole family when I do, and often I find that once I get going, one or both of the kids will chip in and help - my 7yo will offer to wash floors or counters, for example, or clean the fridge, or my 15yo will start on the dishes while I'm sorting the legos from the game pieces.

It wouldn't have been helpful to me, back when I was the at-home parent, to hear "you could just stop". It wouldn't really solve the underlying problem, because the underlying problem wouldn't have been the housework, per se, but my own baggage about my role as a parent and a mom and a female. That's still true, actually. This past weekend I was feeling overwhelmed and wishing the house and all its mess would just go away, and it took me awhile to wade through all that old personal muck. If your wife is feeling overwhelmed, it might help to offer appreciation and care in some really tangible ways. If she appreciates little acts of kindness, look for ways to offer her more of those. George brings me coffee and makes me the kinds of snacks I like best - its a little thing, but its something he does conciously to let me know he cares for me and wants to take care of me. Its sweet, and it goes a long way to helping me feel better.

[James Marcus Bach]

Meredith said:

James Marcus Bach said:

Hi Joyce,

I think I am writing generally useful advice. I'm sorry that it irritates you.

I think the best thing we can do is offer our own takes on these subjects and trust people to sort it out for themselves

Clarification is helpful, though. It helped me to understand the situation you first described (and your "take" on the subject of unschooling in general) better when you went into more detail, explained some of the thinking and family dynamics involved. Without all that extra information, it was hard for me to know if you were throwing a snit at your kid, or what - really, it was hard to tell. So I'm glad you went into more detail - and glad others asked questions and made comments that drew you out a bit.

One of the things that makes discussing radical unschooling difficult is that we're all sooooo invested in our lives and our relationships. We're talking about something really personal! and it can be hard to step back from that in order to learn something new, to gain some additional insights. So questions and comments can "feel" like a personal attack, when that's not the intention at all.

These are kind and helpful words, Meredith. Thank you.

[Pamela Sorooshian]

You know what they say about assumptions?

I am a professional economist. My fields are energy economics, econometrics, and industrial organization. I've worked in the energy field and been an economics professor for the past 33 years. I have also been mom to three unschooled kids who are now 24, 21, and 18 years old.

Climb down off your high horse. I'm offering you a perspective that you might appreciate, if you actually try to understand it. Disagreement is fine, but let's make the disagreement about the substance of the discussion, not about anybody's tone or some assumed reaction to particular words. Next thing you know, I have a feeling you're going to accuse us women of getting hysterical .

So - once again. I understand that your home is full of smiles and good times. So is mine. But, let's assume that both of us might still have something to learn.

So - let's say my daughter is repeatedly doing something that is annoying me - maybe she's watching tv with the volume very high. She's happy with it that way; I am the one with the problem. Right? So - I review the nice things I've willingly and cheerfully been doing for her and I pick one to stop doing. I decide I will no longer do her laundry. This is something she's capable of doing, but I've been happily and cheerfully doing it. I don't mind doing it at all, but I decide not to do it anymore in order to use it as a bargaining chip. I don't say anything, but one day she asks me, "Mom, why don't you do my laundry anymore?" I say, "Oh, would you like me to do it?" She says, "Yes." I say, "Well, let's strike a bargain. I'll do your laundry if you won't turn the TV volume above 6." She says okay. All's happy - everybody gets what they want, right?

So - I think I fully understand your scenario and I've made one up of my own to verify that. And, don't get me wrong, it beats the heck out of parents who simply scream at their kid to turn down the tv or who go in and turn off the tv and say, "No more tv for you. Go outside."

I'm just saying, though, that I think we can take things a step further. Instead of tit-for-tat -- I'll scratch your back if you'll scratch mine -- we can develop a sense of being on the same team. We don't have to bargain or barter, we can develop empathy enough that one person's desires or discomfort matter to the other person even when there is nothing in it for them.

If my child is watching tv with the volume really loud, I don't want to have to enter into a round of bargaining, I want to be able to say, "That's loud," and have her immediately think, "Loud. Bothering Mom. I'll turn it down for her sake." And I certainly don't want her to think she needs to offer me something to get me to do something nice for her - "Mom, I'll stop strangling my sister if you'll make me lunch."

In other words, I'm not a fan of a free market system within a family. Yes, sometimes we'll make a trade, to everybody's benefit. But as a problem-solving method, it leaves much to be desired.

[James Marcus Bach]

Pamela Sorooshian said:

You know what they say about assumptions?

Pamela, I haven't made any significant assumptions about that. I'm making guesses, based on what I'm seeing. I don't have a lot of confidence in my guesses. I'm happy to hear your replies on the substance of what I'm trying to say.

I'm not on a particular "high horse." I'm on a regular horse just like the rest of you. We all have our horses, okay?

You're an economist. Cool. I'm in the software industry. I teach people to think critically about technology. My bias is to speak in mathematical, engineering, and philosophical terms. I thought perhaps that could be what is creating the apparent air of suspicion and the odd accusations that my wife and I are somehow punishing our child by bargaining with him.

Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know what is going on. However, I am replying to people while doing my best not to surgically rebut every little thing and come off looking like a big bully.

"I'm offering you a perspective that you might appreciate, if you actually try to understand it. Disagreement is fine, but let's make the disagreement about the substance of the discussion, not about anybody's tone or some assumed reaction to particular words. Next thing you know, I have a feeling you're going to accuse us women of getting hysterical."

Pamela, please don't hold me to a standard unless you hold yourself and everyone else to the same standard. All I want to do is talk about the substance of ideas.

Anyway, I seem to be coming from some sort of different culture. At least that is the clear implication of Sandra's oft repeated warning that people reading what I say will be misled, etc. Yes, it does seem that this is mostly a place where women converse, and that's definitely a factor in how I'm responding to you. (I argue much more aggressively with men, because I assume they are probably like me and they probably love to argue. I'm not comfortable making that assumption about women).

But I haven't given up, yet.

"So - once again. I understand that your home is full of smiles and good times. So is mine. But, let's assume that both of us might still have something to learn."

I'd love for all of us to make that assumption. I've been making it all along.

"So - let's say my daughter is repeatedly doing something that is annoying me - maybe she's watching tv with the volume very high. She's happy with it that way; I am the one with the problem. Right? So - I review the nice things I've willingly and cheerfully been doing for her and I pick one to stop doing. I decide I will no longer do her laundry. This is something she's capable of doing, but I've been happily and cheerfully doing it. I don't mind doing it at all, but I decide not to do it anymore in order to use it as a bargaining chip. I don't say anything, but one day she asks me, "Mom, why don't you do my laundry anymore?" I say, "Oh, would you like me to do it?" She says, "Yes." I say, "Well, let's strike a bargain. I'll do your laundry if you won't turn the TV volume above 6." She says okay. All's happy - everybody gets what they want, right?"


That's not what I would do. If I were you I would ask her to turn the sound down because it's bugging you. She cares about you, so she'll be happy to do it. Talking and sharing feelings and making requests is the ordinary way to influence each other. This works based on the past establishment of mutual respect and affection.

The remedy I'm talking about is for chronic friction that has created or is creating resentment. The resentment is the problem of the person feeling resentment, but that person is not helpless, because that person is providing things of value to other people, and withdrawal of those things may motivate other people to take the feelings of that person more seriously, in case they weren't before.

It's not a legalistic, formal, or artificial tactic, that I'm talking about. It's not calculated. Nor is it silent or passive/aggressive. We all talk about our feelings with each other. But ultimately, if any of us feels that we're pouring affection and service into a black pit, and getting nothing back, we are allowed to pour less. With the exception that some things are never withdrawn.

For instance, if my son wants my time, and I'm at home, he can have it. Some parents might use their attention as a bargaining chip, but personally I can't comprehend that.

"So - I think I fully understand your scenario and I've made one up of my own to verify that. And, don't get me wrong, it beats the heck out of parents who simply scream at their kid to turn down the tv or who go in and turn off the tv and say, "No more tv for you. Go outside.""


You have the gist of it.

"I'm just saying, though, that I think we can take things a step further. Instead of tit-for-tat -- I'll scratch your back if you'll scratch mine -- we can develop a sense of being on the same team. We don't have to bargain or barter, we can develop empathy enough that one person's desires or discomfort matter to the other person even when there is nothing in it for them."


Yes, that's what I mean when I say I would simply ask my son to turn the TV down.

This is also how my father got me to stop drinking, when I was 15. He did it from thousands of miles away, and with one phone call. This is the reason I value a connection with my son over almost any other thing. I will be able to protect him in certain critical moments if he will take my advice, and in those critical moments, it will be entirely his call whether to do that.

"If my child is watching tv with the volume really loud, I don't want to have to enter into a round of bargaining, I want to be able to say, "That's loud," and have her immediately think, "Loud. Bothering Mom. I'll turn it down for her sake." And I certainly don't want her to think she needs to offer me something to get me to do something nice for her - "Mom, I'll stop strangling my sister if you'll make me lunch."


Exactly. That's just how it works, here, too.

In other words, I'm not a fan of a free market system within a family. Yes, sometimes we'll make a trade, to everybody's benefit. But as a problem-solving method, it leaves much to be desired.

Can you tell us how you deal with something you consider a chronic problem, but that your child doesn't, and that just knowing how you feel doesn't seem to solve?

[Joyce Fetteroll]

** Can you tell us how you deal with something you consider a chronic problem, but that your child doesn't, and that just knowing how you feel doesn't seem to solve? **

It depends on the problem.

In the problem you described, there are two problems tangled up together which is confusing the discussion: There's your wife's resentment of doing things for her son. And there's her resentment of him living like a caveman.

If the problem alone were that your wife was building resentment over doing a task, one approach is to find ways to let go of the resentment. (Reading Diana Jenner's joyful writing about her life when you know she's lost a husband and a young daughter to cancer can be enlightening and humbling (in a good, useful way).)

It's not a matter of finding ways to stuff down feelings, but to consciously work at turning thinking around to let the resentment go. Too often we accept our blessings as how life should be and the irritations grow like weeds. But consciously working at seeing our blessings is like weed killer for irritations :-)

Pam has mentioned she has plates she loves and enjoys washing them. Someone else said they light scented candles and put on music while they do dishes. It's all about making conscious choices to move away from negative feelings, to find ways to avoid feeling like feelings are the master and we're just taken for a ride.

There are also other ways to rethink so that it isn't as huge a task. (A difficult but comfortable routine can be a road block to trying new -- and initially more difficult because they break from routine -- ideas.) If the task were laundry, having a laundry center so clothes are stored next to the washing machine. Having different bins for presorting. Having fewer clothes! Inviting kids along into the laundry process. And so on.

If, on the other hand, the problem was doing something above and beyond what a child really wanted and the mother was resenting her child for not appreciating it, then objectivity into that dynamic would help. Mom would feel better at not having to do something -- and could freely choose when she wanted to -- and the child would be feel relieved at not having to feel grateful for something they didn't think was worth all the effort mom was putting into it.

But a complicating factor is you said she resented him living like a caveman and that compounded her irritation. Maybe it's a final straw factor, but it's really a totally separate problem even if they feel intimately tied together.

It's very helpful in building relationships that if someone is happy and not hurting themselves or others, to find ways to let go of a need to change them.

I'm glad what you did worked for you. But as general advice, withdrawing doing something for a child because of resentment or because you don't like what they're doing is likely to whittle away at -- or down right cut huge chunks out of! -- a relationship.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

** I teach people to think critically about technology. My bias is to speak in mathematical, engineering, and philosophical terms. **

And I was a software engineer with a degree in electrical engineering. I was also a technical writer. A big factor in technical writing is translating geek speak into language a layman can understand. It requires getting into their heads and understanding how something that might be perfectly understandable to me and other engineers, will sound to them. I needed to write from their understanding, not mine.

That's often what's required to write about unschooling. If I write so that only fellow unschoolers understand, my words won't help new unschoolers. For instance, unless I understand that "No," carries different baggage for a conventional parent than for a parent whose top priority is relationships, I won't be able to get across why my daughter will say "Oh, okay," to a "No," and their child will go off on a rant.

** I thought perhaps that could be what is creating the apparent air of suspicion and the odd accusations that my wife and I are somehow punishing our child by bargaining with him. **

It will help you understand what's going on if you see that the discussion isn't about your family. The discussion is about the picture you've painted with the words you've used. You've painted a picture that is 1) a muddy representation of what's going on in your home and 2) looks like a relatively clear picture of an idea that won't help build relationships.

The only thing this medium allows us to discuss is the picture that gets painted with words.

I understand it's irritating to see a picture that doesn't match your family being discussed. It feels like we're discussing you. But we aren't. We're discussing the picture. And it's actually useful to discuss that particular picture because it has common ideas in it that get in the way of unschooling. It is common for parents to build resentment. It is common for parents to want their child to change. Some people will get something from the discussion. They'll see some of these ideas in a new light and will be able to make more relationship building choices because of that.

But, ultimately, rather than adding more and more to the picture to match what happens in your home-- or rather than just saying "Trust me, I'm not like that" -- it's helpful to others to be clear from the beginning. It's helpful to read what you write through a stranger's understanding. No one here knows your history. No one here knows what's happening in your house. No one here can draw on that knowledge to interpret your word picture. All they have are a few words that act as a window. The clearer the words are, the clearer the picture they paint *for others* of what's going on in your home, the smoother the discussion goes.

[Caren]

It's not a legalistic, formal, or artificial tactic, that I'm talking about. It's not calculated. Nor is it silent or passive/aggressive. We all talk about our feelings with each other. But ultimately, if any of us feels that we're pouring affection and service into a black pit, and getting nothing back, we are allowed to pour less. With the exception that some things are never withdrawn.

But it sounds as though the person doing the "service" is determining what to withdraw. I don't think we can determine for another person the meaning of what we do for them. You mentioned not withdrawing attention... but what if someone providing clean laundry says "love" to your son, just as much as attention?

You have written about your family as if it's a group of adults living together, and you can bargain and work things out like a group of roommates would - but an adult roommate wouldn't be completely dependent on you for survival. Just that alone changes the dynamics of a parent/child relationship, and changes the import and effect of your interactions. What your doing sounds logical, but I wonder about the effect it's having on the root of your relationship.

You didn't respond to Meredith's second post, the one under the one you quoted - I highly recommend going back and reading it.

[Sandra Dodd]

Caren's laundry example is good. I feel loved when my husband puts gasoline in the car I'm driving, and changes the oil. I felt loved when he replaces a windshield wiper because Holly was going to drive to another town alone, and that wasn't even directly for me.

From an earlier post:
-=-But ultimately, if any of us feels that we're pouring affection and service into a black pit, and getting nothing back, we are allowed to-=-

If anyone can feel that his or her child is "a black hole," there are ways that relationship can be made more accepting and loving.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
http://sandradodd.com/chores

Sandra

[Pamela Sorooshian]

James, when you posted your initial scenario, you didn't mention anything about the mom already feeling resentful about doing things for the child. You said only that she'd been upset with the child for "living like a caveman" and that YOU suggested she review some of the many things she does for him and simply stop doing some of them and then she could bargain with him. I assumed she was doing those things willingly and without resentment. If she's feeling trapped and resentful, then that's a different issue and I don't see how it resolves her resentment to have the child change his behavior. How does it help her enjoy doing the things she does for him more because HE takes a shower or brushes his teeth?

So, what I missed in MY example was that the mom was already becoming resentful of doing some things for the child? Also that she'd maybe mentioned to the child her annoyance with his behavior and the child didn't care?

Moms getting resentful over doing things for their kids is something we talk about about a lot in unschooling circles. My personal response has been to think more deeply about why I'm doing what I do - get more and more clear in my own head about my choices and, especially, that they are choices. If I'm feeling trapped into something, I think about other options. There is no real choice if there aren't alternatives, so I come up with some, and then I make a real choice. That seems to dissipate the resentment.

Resentment can stem from some unexpected sources - sometimes it is that we wish WE had had parents like our kids have, we can resent that we didn't have the wonderful childhood we are giving our kids. Sometimes it can be that we feel housework and mothering are beneath us, that we "should be" doing more with our lives. Sometimes we are truly bored by the activity itself - more dishes, more laundry, more dust, more cooking the same old foods the kids like. I've gained a lot from talking this through with other parents. Joyce mentioned my dishes. What happened was that Sandra talked about how she had some dishes she loved and how she enjoyed using them and washing them. Some of hers had old memories attached. I thought how my dishes were just dishes - I didn't particular love them or enjoy them. So, over the next year, I slowly began to replace our dishes with ones I really really loved. I found some plates that I enjoy so much that it gives me a surge of pleasure every time I observe someone using one. They have flowers on them that are paintings of some gorgeous pressed flowers by a wonderful artist named Janie Gross. I looked her up and even wrote to her. Anyway, I won't bore you with my entire beautiful dishes story, but I just love them. I found some coffee cups that are unusual and go well with the plates, some cheap bowls that are the exact shade of the rim of the plates. I eventually bought some nice (but inexpensive at Costco) silverware, because we were using old stuff we'd gathered from I don't know where, over the years.

In other words, I noticed that working with dishes was something I did a LOT of and I decided to make it more pleasurable, to have nicer things to work with, to take it beyond just household maintenance to adding some art and beauty to that time. Every time I wash a dish, I think of Janie Gross working in her room with flowers all around her. I'm inspired. Some photos of Janie, working in her studio, and some of her work (including the flowers that are on my plates) are at janiegross dotcom.

Those are a couple of the things I did to work on changing my own sometimes-resentful attitude. I did other things. My point is that if feeling a little resentful is getting to be an issue, that IS a problem for the parent and something that can be examined and worked on and resolved. Better to keep the child out of it - it isn't the child's fault and blaming a parents' resentment on a child's behavior isn't good. In your scenario, if the kid takes showers and brushes his teeth, the mom stops being resentful of doing things for him - from the child's point of view, he can earn her attention and love by behaving certain ways. That's what I meant by punishment - something is withdrawn unless the child changes. The child is punished for continued annoying behavior by the withdrawal of the parent doing certain things for the child. Parental attention to the child's interests is conditional.

About the child being annoying by not showering or brushing his teeth -
Lots of little boys and some little girls go through periods of time where they don't like to take baths or showers. I've heard it from a hundred parents, at least, and had it go on in my home, too. If THAT is what is meant by "living like a caveman," then there are some options for that specific problem, but the best option, imo, is to appreciate that it is a developmental stage and grin and bear it, knowing that a future stage will very likely involve spending considerable time in the shower and even wanting to shower more than once a day. In the meantime, take the kid swimming, get a slip-n-slide to play with in the yard, etc. Depending on the age - you can make bathtub play really fun. I used to give my kids a big huge bowl of pudding and some paintbrushes - they'd sit in the tub and paint the walls. Then I'd turn the handheld shower nozzle on to wash up the pudding and them, at the same time. If I had one who needed a wash, but wasn't into taking baths or showers, I'd entice them outside to wash the dog or the car and we'd end up in a water fight with the hose. Occasionally I would just say, "Please let me wash your hair." Usually they would, if I didn't ask too often. Sometimes they'd just bend their head over a sink and I'd wash it that way - so not a full immersion, but clean hair was good!

Mostly I ignored that they weren't taking a bath or shower, found ways to get them into clean clothes when possible.

I ran a "Destination Imagination" team for five years. There were four boys on the team and several girls. One year, when they were about 11 and 12 years old, all of the boys were in a no-bathing stage of development. Let's just say that working in close quarters, often very much in physical contact, was unpleasant. I ended up making a request, openly, that the whole team come to meetings showered and in clean clothes. And I told them, "Tell your parents I said it is their job to remind you in time for a bath or shower and to put on clean clothes before our meetings." Two of the parents told me that their kids had told them that. I think having it come from someone other than a parent, and being kind of a group thing, might have helped. They all came fresh out of the shower, from then on.

If my daughters want to go shopping at a mall and want me to go with them, they'll sometimes say, "If you go to the mall with us, we could go get frozen yogurt on the way home." Something like that. They sweeten the pot a little, to get me to do something they know I don't enjoy nearly as much as they do. This clearly comes from me having done the same, when they were younger. In a way, this is what you were describing, but there was one big glaring difference.

The mom was already doing some things for the child on a regular basis and, because she was annoyed by the child's behavior, you suggested she withdraw doing some of those things and wait until the child notices, then say she'll do them again only IF the child changes his behavior.

I'm just saying, there are better ways to problem solve than by that kind of withdrawal of something, first, and then bargaining with it. That's not much different than the little kids who says, "If you don't do what I want, I'll take my ball and go home."

[James Marcus Bach]

Thanks for the long post, Pamela. This is a helpful sort of conversation (to me, anyway).


"James, when you posted your initial scenario, you didn't mention anything about the mom already feeling resentful about doing things for the child. You said only that she'd been upset with the child for "living like a caveman" and that YOU suggested she review some of the many things she does for him and simply stop doing some of them and then she could bargain with him."

I didn't mention that part of the dynamic, because I felt it was not a central issue. Maybe it is important, though. Lenore didn't feel resentful in general. I think she had begun to feel resentful because she wanted him to have a higher standard of hygiene for himself.

"I assumed she was doing those things willingly and without resentment. If she's feeling trapped and resentful, then that's a different issue and I don't see how it resolves her resentment to have the child change his behavior. How does it help her enjoy doing the things she does for him more because HE takes a shower or brushes his teeth?"


I'm guessing, but I think it's because she respects him more. It's easier to serve someone you respect.

"Moms getting resentful over doing things for their kids is something we talk about about a lot in unschooling circles. My personal response has been to think more deeply about why I'm doing what I do - get more and more clear in my own head about my choices and, especially, that they are choices."


Yes, being an unschooling parent means the parents do a whole lot of self-examination.

"Anyway, I won't bore you with my entire beautiful dishes story..."

Stories like that are important. Thank you.

"In other words, I noticed that working with dishes was something I did a LOT of and I decided to make it more pleasurable, to have nicer things to work with, to take it beyond just household maintenance to adding some art and beauty to that time."

I think I know what you mean. I do yardwork without help. I could be annoyed by that. But I bring to mind the phrase "chop wood, carry water" and I appreciate that in doing yardword, I'm getting a break from trying to solve unsolvable problems, which is my day job. I also remember that I spent my childhood not helping people. I like feeling that I'm making up for that, now.

"In your scenario, if the kid takes showers and brushes his teeth, the mom stops being resentful of doing things for him - from the child's point of view, he can earn her attention and love by behaving certain ways."


Personally, I don't see a problem with the idea that there are things I can do (as a child or adult) to earn more respect. Love, however, is a loaded word. I think of love differently. Strictly speaking, I don't think of love as something that can be earned.

I would not want to give the impression that my son has to do anything to earn my love. It's a fixed condition of his life that I will love him. By which I mean that what he feels, thinks, does and who he is matters to me a great deal, and that I want for him to feel good about his life.

"That's what I meant by punishment - something is withdrawn unless the child changes. The child is punished for continued annoying behavior by the withdrawal of the parent doing certain things for the child. Parental attention to the child's interests is conditional."


I think calling that punishment is to apply a very hot word to a rather cool situation. It distorts what I'm trying to say, or else it distorts the idea of punishment. If people around you feel bad, they may not want to smile as much when they are around you. Is fewer smiles a "punishment" for your behavior? Seems a strange way of talking.

Punishment involves making a moral/ethical judgment. That's not part of the tactic I described. It's expressly NOT part of it. The child does not have a problem.

Punishment means taking an action specifically to control someone else's "bad" behavior. That's not what I'm doing with my tactic, I'm withdrawing not to control him, but to protect myself so that I don't live in a state of anger. Living in a state of anger is very bad for me. Withdrawing may or may not result in someone else changing their behavior.

I appreciate the suggestions some have made for solving that problem in other ways. That does not invalidate my suggestion, however, which is available even if those other methods fail.

"If THAT is what is meant by "living like a caveman," then there are some options for that specific problem, but the best option, imo, is to appreciate that it is a developmental stage and grin and bear it, knowing that a future stage will very likely involve spending considerable time in the shower and even wanting to shower more than once a day."

I agree. That's what we do, normally. After a year, that got to be a bit trying.

"And I told them, "Tell your parents I said it is their job to remind you in time for a bath or shower and to put on clean clothes before our meetings." Two of the parents told me that their kids had told them that. I think having it come from someone other than a parent, and being kind of a group thing, might have helped. They all came fresh out of the shower, from then on."


Good idea.

I'm just saying, there are better ways to problem solve than by that kind of withdrawal of something, first, and then bargaining with it. That's not much different than the little kids who says, "If you don't do what I want, I'll take my ball and go home."

You're right, it isn't much different. But then I don't think there's anything wrong with a kid who says that, if the alternative for that child is seething anger. You may say "but there are alternatives." I reply, "not necessarily for that child at that moment."

I appreciate your suggestions for dealing with the same problem in other ways. I think all those things are good to try first. I use them too, and they often work. Ultimately, in a situation where you feel used, off-center, weak, or something like that, and you are not able to resolve it, you need to take an inventory of your assumptions, choices, and commitments. You may need to withdraw (perhaps a little, perhaps a lot) from a situation in which you can't get what you need to keep going.

-- James