Children "need you to make choices for them"

[Jen]

I was asked to write a parenting column for a local blog about Radical Unschooling/Consensual Living. In the comment section, a women left the comment that "Children need parents to make choices for them because it makes them feel safe and secure."

My immediate reaction, of course, is, "My child DOES feel safe and secure!" But I'm pretty sure that's the along the same lines of "Nu-uh!!" Even after thinking about it though, I'm having a hard time articulating a response, so I thought I'd post here and see if you all could help me come up with a thought out response to this comment!

Thanks!

[Frank Maier]

Labelling is precisely the issue. You described what is clearly a punishment, what is clearly recognized as a punishment by folks reading here and by mainstream psychology, but claimed that it's not a punishment.

Your claim is erroneous prima facie.

"Do you want to wear the red shirt or the blue shirt?" is not offering a kid a genuine choice, it is requiring the kid to wear a shirt after they've expressed a desire to go shirtless. You can call it a choice, and in a limited, technical sense it is; but it ain't a real choice.

"Eat your vegetables or you don't get X." is coercion and a punishment for not complying with daddy's desire for a vegetable-filled kid.

Call me silly all you want but I don't find quid pro quo a palatable family principle.



James Marcus Bach said:

Frank Maier said:

Check this page for the definition of "negative punishment" in the context of mainstream psychology: http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/Faculty/Wasserman/Glossary/punishme...

Bach said: Over time, things sort out.

Yeah, and over enough time, the universe (probably) ends in total entropy at absolute zero. So what? Meanwhile, right now, my kids are learning about life by observing what I do and deriving their own teleology based on those observation. If I were to punish them, they'd recognize it, no matter what I might choose to label it.

That's true, but labeling is not the issue, Frank. What I'm talking about is not punishment, and would not be recognized as punishment. That you or anyone else, here, without evidence or experience, would make such a claim is pretty silly.

Perhaps you do have evidence and experience. In which case, let's compare notes, because I have good experience on this, both with adults and with children (mainly my own child, of course).

The best thing you can do is talk about what you know. Tell us a story about how something you didn't think was punishment was perceived as such. Tell us what you learned from that.

[JennyStar]

Yes, it does seem that this is mostly a place where women converse, and that's definitely a factor in how I'm responding to you. (I argue much more aggressively with men, because I assume they are probably like me and they probably love to argue. I'm not comfortable making that assumption about women).

You could just assume that we are all people. I got an immediate "ugh" internal response from what was written above. It's very sexist. You can make all the generalizations you want about men and women, but take them all with a grain of salt because they don't always hold true. I don't really want to get into a big feminist soap box rant, but that comment really bothered me!


But I haven't given up, yet.

"So - once again. I understand that your home is full of smiles and good times. So is mine. But, let's assume that both of us might still have something to learn."

I'd love for all of us to make that assumption. I've been making it all along.

"So - let's say my daughter is repeatedly doing something that is annoying me - maybe she's watching tv with the volume very high. She's happy with it that way; I am the one with the problem. Right? So - I review the nice things I've willingly and cheerfully been doing for her and I pick one to stop doing. I decide I will no longer do her laundry. This is something she's capable of doing, but I've been happily and cheerfully doing it. I don't mind doing it at all, but I decide not to do it anymore in order to use it as a bargaining chip. I don't say anything, but one day she asks me, "Mom, why don't you do my laundry anymore?" I say, "Oh, would you like me to do it?" She says, "Yes." I say, "Well, let's strike a bargain. I'll do your laundry if you won't turn the TV volume above 6." She says okay. All's happy - everybody gets what they want, right?"


That's not what I would do. If I were you I would ask her to turn the sound down because it's bugging you. She cares about you, so she'll be happy to do it. Talking and sharing feelings and making requests is the ordinary way to influence each other. This works based on the past establishment of mutual respect and affection.

The remedy I'm talking about is for chronic friction that has created or is creating resentment. The resentment is the problem of the person feeling resentment, but that person is not helpless, because that person is providing things of value to other people, and withdrawal of those things may motivate other people to take the feelings of that person more seriously, in case they weren't before.

It's not a legalistic, formal, or artificial tactic, that I'm talking about. It's not calculated. Nor is it silent or passive/aggressive. We all talk about our feelings with each other. But ultimately, if any of us feels that we're pouring affection and service into a black pit, and getting nothing back, we are allowed to pour less. With the exception that some things are never withdrawn.

For instance, if my son wants my time, and I'm at home, he can have it. Some parents might use their attention as a bargaining chip, but personally I can't comprehend that.

"So - I think I fully understand your scenario and I've made one up of my own to verify that. And, don't get me wrong, it beats the heck out of parents who simply scream at their kid to turn down the tv or who go in and turn off the tv and say, "No more tv for you. Go outside.""


You have the gist of it.

"I'm just saying, though, that I think we can take things a step further. Instead of tit-for-tat -- I'll scratch your back if you'll scratch mine -- we can develop a sense of being on the same team. We don't have to bargain or barter, we can develop empathy enough that one person's desires or discomfort matter to the other person even when there is nothing in it for them."


Yes, that's what I mean when I say I would simply ask my son to turn the TV down.

This is also how my father got me to stop drinking, when I was 15. He did it from thousands of miles away, and with one phone call. This is the reason I value a connection with my son over almost any other thing. I will be able to protect him in certain critical moments if he will take my advice, and in those critical moments, it will be entirely his call whether to do that.

"If my child is watching tv with the volume really loud, I don't want to have to enter into a round of bargaining, I want to be able to say, "That's loud," and have her immediately think, "Loud. Bothering Mom. I'll turn it down for her sake." And I certainly don't want her to think she needs to offer me something to get me to do something nice for her - "Mom, I'll stop strangling my sister if you'll make me lunch."


Exactly. That's just how it works, here, too.

In other words, I'm not a fan of a free market system within a family. Yes, sometimes we'll make a trade, to everybody's benefit. But as a problem-solving method, it leaves much to be desired.

Can you tell us how you deal with something you consider a chronic problem, but that your child doesn't, and that just knowing how you feel doesn't seem to solve?

[Miriam Skipworth]

Hi James, I'm a noob to radical unschooling and what I heard was this: "If you don't behave the way we want then we'll withhold our love to you."
Thanks for sparking such a thought provoking discussion, I have learned a lot.

James Marcus Bach said:

LisaRussell said:

I can't think of a single "bad decision" in life that would absolutely ruin everything. If my daughter is deciding to run into oncoming traffic, then I would definitely decide to stop her. however, deciding what to wear, whether or not to use the potty, which words to use, whether or not to say thank you, or wear shoes today - these decisions will not have life-long consequences.

Not being allowed to think for oneself, THAT has lifelong consequences.

A child who has all the decisions made for them is NOT going to feel very secure as an adult, when no one is there to make decisions for them. Children can feel safety knowing that they are loved, and that no "decision" is going to ruin everything. Life is good. I wonder why people distrust kids so much,

This is exactly how we've been living at our house.

Yesterday I was walking the dogs with my son, and told him he was easy to live with, and that I was grateful for that. He told me he was "doing a lot of things" such as showering every day and brushing his teeth and putting his laundry in the bin, so that we wouldn't be annoyed with him. (Lenore had been upset with him "living like a caveman", so I suggested she review some of the many things she does for him and simply stop doing some of them until he noticed and asked for her help. Then she could strike a bargain with him. That seems to have worked.)

I thanked him for that.

Basically, he's becoming a reasonable young man, and that's all happened without any significant pressure to conform or pretend.

[James Marcus Bach]

Miriam Skipworth said:

Hi James, I'm a noob to radical unschooling and what I heard was this: "If you don't behave the way we want then we'll withhold our love to you."
Thanks for sparking such a thought provoking discussion, I have learned a lot.


I'm sorry that's what you heard. I hope the other parts of the conversation have shown that's not what I said and not what I meant.

I am incapable of withholding my love for my son. It's beyond my comprehension that anyone who loves their children could "withhold" that love. Love is not something that flows through a faucet, or if it does, I don't know how to turn it off.

[James Marcus Bach]

"Labelling is precisely the issue. You described what is clearly a punishment, what is clearly recognized as a punishment by folks reading here and by mainstream psychology, but claimed that it's not a punishment."


I'm sorry you feel that way, Frank. I believe you don't know what you're talking about. Perhaps we disagree about what punishment is, but I suspect it's more likely that you have misunderstood what I wrote.

[Robin B.]

I'm sorry you feel that way, Frank. I believe you don't know what you're talking about.

~ Really? Frank does know what he's talking about, actually.

Perhaps we disagree about what punishment is, but I suspect it's more likely that you have misunderstood what I wrote.

~ Gee, I don't think so. Every long-time unschooler here has misunderstood you, then. These are people who do not resort to withdrawal of care in order to get their child or children to do something they want.

~ Unschooling parents can make the choice to joyfully do the laundry, the dishes, make meals, drive their kids places. They model being "in service" and guess what? It rubs off, maybe at different times for each child. There are plenty of real-life stories about exactly that happening.

~ When something is annoying to us, we can talk to our kids about it. They still have the choice to do something about it. Maybe it's not important to them *right now* but it might be later, especially if we do nothing to harm our relationship with them. We can support them in finding their own solutions to address a difficulty or problem. We ask ourselves "whose problem is this anyway?"

~ If I decide to stop doing my child's laundry because she won't wash her hair as often as I'd like her to, how is those two things even related? If she then feels guilty enough that she's upset me so much that I've stopped something that I did happily before and washes her hair more often, how has that helped our relationship? I get what I want (her clean hair), she gets her laundry done (which she likes), but she loses some trust in me. I have, in fact, forced her into a position of either pleasing me (ugh) or having no clean clothes/doing laundry herself. What kind of choice is that?

~ There are so many other ways to deal with this that keep a peaceful relationship intact. You'll find lots of them on Sandra's and Joyce's site and at unschooling yahoo groups all over the place.

~ You mentioned talking to your son about how you are feeling and how things upset you. Do you do that for information or to get a certain response from him? Could you explain what you say to him when you talk with him about such a situation?

~ I pulled this out:

It's reasonable to say that my suggestion might look like punishment. And it's also reasonable to put that word away again when I explain how it's not: there is no retribution, no intent to cause pain or discomfort, no attempt to control the child. What it is, is self-protection.

~ What do you mean by "What it is, is self-protection"?

[Joyce Fetteroll]

** I'm sorry that's what you heard. I hope the other parts of the conversation have shown that's not what I said and not what I meant. **

If the purpose of the forum were clarity in what James does in his home, then you defending what you did and why you did it would be important.

If the purpose is clarifying unschooling for others, your defensiveness has sparked some clarifying discussion, but your own words were about understanding you, not about understanding unschooling.

Repeatedly you've defended what you've written, what you did, pointed out that we're all flawed and all make mistakes. None of that helps anyone understand unschooling. (It helps us understand that your defenses go up when you feel misunderstood!)

You keep pulling the focus back to you when, to help others understand unschooling, the focus needs to be on whether an idea is clear to people all along the spectrum of unschooling.

** It's beyond my comprehension that anyone who loves their children could "withhold" that love. **

Yet some people can and do. That's how they were raised. Sometimes they come here wanting help to let go of that tool. Sometimes they don't realize they're doing it because it's all they knew.

If withholding love is beyond your comprehension, then when you write -- as happened in this thread -- you won't be taking their point of view into account. You will be assuming everyone has your understanding and attitudes, when that just isn't true.

It's compassionate to assume some in the audience are struggling with some of the ideas, who don't find the ideas come easily or naturally. It would arrogant to write as though everyone already understood and would pull the true meaning from beneath ideas that sounded conventional. (And one of the reasons Sandra keeps asking people not to use acronyms! ;-)

I appreciate the fact these forums don't require specialized understanding, that they're open to anyone curious about unschooling and growing relationships with their children, regardless of where they fall on that spectrum. It's what I needed when starting out. The only requirement is curiosity about the subject.

[Meredith]

" I am incapable of withholding my love for my son. It's beyond my comprehension that anyone who loves their children could "withhold" that love. Love is not something that flows through a faucet, or if it does, I don't know how to turn it off."

The issue isn't whether or not you love your son - I'm pretty sure everyone here thinks you do. The trouble is, how we express love can be tied up in our own perspectives, even our own baggage. The other person, the person we love, may not be able to see through our perspectives and baggage to that love.

How do people perceive love? That's an important question to think about. Specifically, how do the other members of your family perceive love? That's more important, in terms of you showing them love, than how You perceive love. One way to communicate love is by doing things for others. When my partner brings me a cup of coffee first thing in the morning, or cleans the kitchen right before I come home from work, he's expressing love to me. For awhile he was all wrapped up in a recording project and stopped bringing me coffee in the morning - I had to conciously remind myself that it wasn't a deliberate act of love-withdrawal on his part, but it hurt my feelings a little, anyway.

I don't expect my kids to have that kind of understanding, yet, though. Heck, some adults don't have that kind of understanding (one of my coworkers suggested I withold sex in retribution, for instance). So I try to be very careful of things that could seem, from another's perspective, to be acts of love withdrawal. Today, for instance, is the day of my dd's bday party. She's 8, actual bday was yesterday. But she wanted everyone in the family to say: "Happy second day of your birthday" today. We all did (some with prompting) because that's important to her. It helps her feel loved. If one of us refused to say it, for whatever reason, she'd feel less loved today, regardless of any of our actual feelings.

[tamlyn]

What if your child makes an agreement with you and then wants to get out of his/her end of it? I made a verbal agreement with my son that if we got him a nice ($220) guitar for Christmas last year that he would agree to do 1 year of guitar lessons. We talked about it at length. I told him it would be very hard and that he might want to quit. He told me he really wanted to learn and would stay in lessons for a year. It's been 8 months and he realy is not enjoying the practicing at all. It is making it hard for all of us. We've tried many things to make the practices more interesting for him, including doing the lessons with him, coming up with games, encouraging him to learn his favorite tunes in addition to the regular lessons, getting him to teach his dad to play (which he liked for a while), and other things. But, I really don't belive in coercive parenting. I do my best to let him make his own choices. I suppose what I might hear back from you guys is to let him quit and learn what he learns from that. But...he has learned that lesson a lot already in his short 11 years on this planet. He is talented in chess, won 2nd in state, and promptly quit just after that. Perhaps he felt like he'd conquered it, I don't know. But there have been many, many endeavors quit midstream. He has no other real interests other than video games. He is undirected most of the time. If he was happy with that, I would not worry, but he is not. He says he is bored a lot. I've "strewed," and "strewed" and he just keeps saying no to things...my unschooling friend tells me let his boredom be his boredom. I like the zen of that, but wow, it's hard to let him suffer. The guitar lessons cost us 80 a month and they are in a small group setting of 2 to 3 other kids. I am just not sure what to do. I think keeping him in might also teach him valuable lessons about sticking to your word.

Sandra Dodd said:

People tend to strike (either way--withholding services or "striking a bargain") with adversaries, not with partners. While you feel this way worked, the goal (to get your son to do more so you wouldn't be annoyed) wasn't the only one. If a mom is willing to do laundry or pick up dishes, the child will be willing to do it for the mom after a while. If a mom's goal is to get the child to do it for himself, she might achieve that goal and no more. That could be a loss.

Gail Higgins wrote something beautiful about this recently here:

http://gail-hummingbirdhaven.blogspot.com/2009/07/just-clean-kitche...

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-he has learned that lesson a lot already in his short 11 years on this planet.-=-

So he was ten when you made that deal? There are good reasons the age of making a contract isn't until 16 or so (or older, for some contracts)!

If your principles are about learning and relationships, the answer will be easier.
http://sandradodd.com/rules
http://sandradodd.com/music
That music page might give you some good ideas.

I'd let the lessons go sweetly. I would apologize for not just getting him a guitar without the added burden and guilt.

Let him learn in his own way and in his own time, or even not at all. It might not be this year or next. The guitar has already been paid for. If you bought a dozen donuts, you wouldn't force him to eat all twelve just because he was hungry when you bought them.

[Valerie]

My 11 year old, over the summer, wanted to make some money. He started with mowing lawns and made an arrangement with a lady nearby. After the first mowing he realized that it wasn't quite what he'd expected...the neighbor found a college aged boy to do the job. (Her yard was a three hour job and we helped).

He then tried a lemonade stand, which was more to his liking. We helped him again and he wanted to venture further with this idea and go mobile. He and his father built a cart that he could carry his supplies in and pull behind his bike. He designed his own shirt, set his own prices.... he made more money before he went mobile. But it wasn't ever really about the money. And it's spent more time in the garage than on the rode.

Now I'm gonna say that corny "priceless" line....time spent bonding with pop...priceless.

[Meredith]

What if your child makes an agreement with you and then wants to get out of his/her end of it? I made a verbal agreement with my son that if we got him a nice ($220) guitar for Christmas last year that he would agree to do 1 year of guitar lessons. We talked about it at length. I told him it would be very hard and that he might want to quit. He told me he really wanted to learn and would stay in lessons for a year.

That wasn't a terribly reasonable agreement for you to make. Beyond the fact that its not really a developmentally appropriate choice for a 10yo, adults regularly drop classes - even classes where they can't get a refund for the remainder of the course. Its normal for adult classes to have a 50% attrition rate between the first and last class. Its only kids who are made to stick things out for a whole course regardless of if they dislike it, aren't comfortable with the format, or don't have a good raport with the teacher.

It's been 8 months and he realy is not enjoying the practicing at all.

Well, its a little late now, but in general its a good idea to look for teachers who don't push the idea of practice. A group class isn't a good format for that reason.

He is talented in chess, won 2nd in state, and promptly quit just after that. Perhaps he felt like he'd conquered it, I don't know.

Or maybe he'd had enough. People get tired of things. It can take a lot of energy to succeed - and it isn't always worth it when balanced against other aspects of life. Just because someone is good at something doesn't mean they should Have to do that thing. "Having to" can sap the joy from something one loves - its one reason many people don't turn their hobbies into careers.

But there have been many, many endeavors quit midstream.

Good for him! He's learning something valuable - how to say "no more" when he's had enough. That's fantastic! I wish more people had that skill.

But there have been many, many endeavors quit midstream. He has no other real interests other than video games. He is undirected most of the time. If he was happy with that, I would not worry, but he is not. He says he is bored a lot.

What's your reaction when he gets into something new? Do you tend to push, like with the guitar lessons? Do you need to step back a bit and let him lead more? Let him pick things up and put things down. Its okay for him to flounder around a bit, trying to figure out what he enjoys. That's normal. And he's at an age where its normal to be a bit unsettled - to be "over" kid stuff but not really have a good grasp of what's next. That can manifest as boredom. Strewing doesn't necessarily help that. He's looking for his adult self, in a way, something that he won't really find, but will grow into over the next few years.

If you've been finding all his experimenting and putting things aside frustrating, then you may be sending him messages that he's "doing something wrong" which won't help him. Its important that you accept that his process is his - its not going to look like yours or anyone else's necessarily. Some people do a lot of dabbling. Some people get passionate and then burn out and look for a new passion. There are many different ways to learn and to live.

I think keeping him in might also teach him valuable lessons about sticking to your word.

The vast majority of adults who drop classes a month into them were "taught" that lesson over and over as kids. It doesn't do what you're hoping it does.

Why is it so important to you that he take these lessons? Is it that you don't want to feel that you've thrown money away? It might help to take some honest stock of the foolish financial decisions you've made in your own life - when have you thrown money away on yourself? I'm not asking to be rude, but so that you can have a sense of perspective. Have you never bought something and had it turn out to be a dud? Gone to a show and not enjoyed it? Bought a pair of shoes that you only wore once? Do you have no kitchen appliances that are gathering dust in a back corner of a cabinet because you never use them? Its normal for adults to make bad choices with money now and then - but we tend to be really hard on kids when we spend a chunk of money on them and things don't turn out the way we'd hoped.