Children "need you to make choices for them"

[Jen]

I was asked to write a parenting column for a local blog about Radical Unschooling/Consensual Living. In the comment section, a women left the comment that "Children need parents to make choices for them because it makes them feel safe and secure."

My immediate reaction, of course, is, "My child DOES feel safe and secure!" But I'm pretty sure that's the along the same lines of "Nu-uh!!" Even after thinking about it though, I'm having a hard time articulating a response, so I thought I'd post here and see if you all could help me come up with a thought out response to this comment!

Thanks!

[Deb Lewis]

***How is it punishment when we require nothing of him?***

From his perspective you required a change in his behavior in order for him to receive your approval.
He said something like, "...so you won't be annoyed with me"

You didn't require him to stay in his room until he agreed to do what you wanted. You didn't require him to submit to a whacking. But, by withholding services, you withheld what he perceived to be approval or affection until he complied. He was *required* to comply if he wanted your approval.

It might have just been plainer, less manipulative, to say, "I can smell you, it'd be nice if you took a shower." - or brushed your teeth - whichever thing. My experience with a young kid who didn't like to shower was that he did not smell. He didn't have adult, stinky sweat. I could smell his head, but I could smell his head a couple hours after he showered so that was a chemistry thing more than a cleanliness thing. Dirt on hands or arms or face can be got rid of with a wet washcloth and does not require a shower. There are swimming pools and water sprinklers. Showers aren't the only option.

About teeth brushing: I very often said out loud, "My mouth feels yucky, my breath probably stinks, I'm going to brush my teeth." (or some version of that) Or to my son, "We both have morning breath, let's go brush." It was a way to help him gain awareness of some of the other reasons to brush teeth, not just to clean them after eating, but to clean our mouths so that other people didn't have to endure our bad breath. He slept with us too and if we talked in the morning, in bed, it became pretty clear that getting our teeth brushed was a good idea. : )

There are gums and rinses for helping keep mouths clean and smelling fresh. Bushing isn't the only option.

It'd be nicer to just pick up his laundry if he was forgetting. I pick up my husband's laundry if he's forgotten something. He picks up mine. We love each other. What's a towel or twenty in the big scheme of things? Maybe the hamper isn't in a convenient place. Maybe an extra hamper or two or three in places your kid typically drops laundry would be the solution. If a hamper with a lid is too much trouble how about a laundry basket? Deliberately choosing to be unhelpful seems to be modeling the kind of meanness that we don't want our children to demonstrate.

Other options: Hire a housekeeper. Stop thinking of your child as another adult who agreed to live with you. He didn't have a choice, he didn't select you, answer an ad. He's not another adult roommate, he's your child, and he needs special care and help and generosity from you if he's going to grow into a caring, helpful and generous adult. We should hope for and want more than for our partners and parents and kids to treat us like roommates. The bond with our kids *should be* deeper and better and more loving and generous than the relationship with any random stranger who shares half the space and pays half the rent.


Deb

[Alison MacNamara]

Wow, Joyce, that was the perfect thing for me to read right now, as an absolute novice at this new relationship with my children, at letting go of resentment. That's where I'm coming from, and that's how I was reading what James wrote.

Joyce Fetteroll said:

**My idea was exactly a way for Lenore to deal with that feeling. I'm sure there are others.**

I helps people who come along next month or 3 years from now, though, if advice given is seen in a more generalized light than in a "what worked for us" light.

If you're not here 3 years from now to explain the personalities involved, the advice will read as though you suggest parents should put their needs first and let their child figure out how to fit their needs in around it.

Most people coming into unschooling are coming from conventional parenting where the mindset is to conform kids to the parent's convenience. So what you've written will sound *from that point of view* like a reinforcement of what they already know.

To help people let go of that conventional thinking, they need to do some mental house cleaning before they can build relationships. Part of that mental housecleaning is finding ways to joyfully take care of our kids needs rather than seeing the tasks as "have tos".

That's not the whole of it! We shouldn't just be doing, doing, doing and stuffing down resentment. That's no better! But since the pendulum for most people is swung towards the parents first side, it helps to find healthy ways to put our families first so we can better see what our real needs are and what are just resentments over family sucking up our time.

I suspect you're already beyond that. You were helping you wife see that she was falling into the "I have to" trap and you pointed out that she didn't "have to". But to move your advice beyond a report of something that worked for your unique family in your unique situation towards something that will help others in very different situations, it helps to understand how the ideas you post will read to someone who may be in a very different mind set. To someone who is still caught on the idea that kids need to make life less inconvenient for their parents, then what they'll read is that they can stop doing their kids' laundry so the kids will have to do it themselves.

I know that's not what you meant, but it's how it will get read by many.

** It's okay, Sandra, for there to be many ways and many voices on this forum, right? **

It's easy to write what we each do. It's not so easy to write about it while you've got an ear tuned to how it will read to someone coming from mainstream parenting.

For instance, Kathryn took college math classes when she was 14. It's something that worked for her. But I need to be conscious of what context I drop that into. I don't want unschoolers to feel anxious that their 14 yos are glued to the Spongebob marathon and not doing college course work ;-) Does that make sense?

** Oh yes. Lot's of things would change my assessment. I take lots of things into account. I like to be reasonable. **

But your judgement of when he's able to care for himself is about you with your unique background and family. How does the idea read and how does it help another family? It's too vague to be a useful philosophy. It's like saying we should all be good parents.

Any parent feeling -- not even saying out loud -- toward their child, "You're 7 now (or 9 or 13) and are old enough to be able to do this," won't help build relationships. To build relationships it helps to see the world through their eyes, to hear our words through their ears, to feel our actions through their understanding of the world.

No matter how true it is, no matter his good intent, if my husband decided I was old enough at 53 to be able to walk into a car dealership and buy a car by myself, it would feel like an abandonment if he did that.

If a parent 2 years from now reads that your wife stopped doing what she resented doing and your son happily came to fix the situation, they're going to be very confused when their child is angry and resentful -- or maybe even doesn't notice!

What builds relationships is inviting kids along, asking for help, appreciating help given. (But that's to vague to be helpful ;-)

** We are parents, but we are also undeniably people who have our own things we want to do. Our lives do not center on our children. Instead, we interact with each other as people and the family has a common center. If you think that's adversarial, then, I guess I don't see your point at all. I'm talking about ordinary cooperative living between people. It's not about winning or losing. **

And if you can express what you do to someone coming from a conventional parenting mindset so that it doesn't sound like more of what they already understand, then that would be great.

It takes a lot of practice and feed back and objectivity to write so that people from multiple mindsets can get a handle on what's different about what you're saying from what they already understand.

To help them understand, it helps to build a bridge. But to build a bridge, it helps to understand where they're coming from and how and why they see the world as they do. What you're doing is describing the island you're living on and the words you're using are making your island sound a lot like conventional parenting islands. Every conventional parent would agree that adults are people with their own wants.

But how can a parent meet their own wants *and* build good relationships? Most of us grew up in conventional homes where parents had sort of a mental tally of all the things they did for others (including the non-requests like making dinner, doing laundry and so on) and all the things they did for themselves. At some point the tally would reach the breaking point and they would cut off the child for asking for too much. There was sort of a unspoken promise that when we kids got to be adults it would be our turn, but since our parents were adults, it was their turn. Turns out that our parents lied! ;-) When we get to be adults, we find life full of obligations. And unintentionally we fall into a resentment trap of all this stuff that sucks up our time. And we wonder when it will be our turn. And we can end up taking our turn by stealing it from our kids -- as our parents did to us -- by saying "No, I'm tired of doing that for you. Now it's my turn to do something for me."

It doesn't sound like you're there. It sounds like you have a decent handle on the relationship dynamics. Maybe your parents were never like that which is cool! *But* -- BUT -- you're writing to people who are there, or are partially away from there, or who could easily fall back into being there. And what you're writing sounds from that point of view a lot like what they already know: "Go with your feelings. If you feel resentful about doing for the kids, then don't do it."

Does that help make Sandra's response any clearer? Does it make more sense why what's straight forward sharing to you might be read very differently -- in fact practically the opposite -- of what actually happens in your home and why Sandra's saying "Wait, look at it in this light."?

[Starr Sheppard-Decker]

[First of all, I just want to vent my frustration.... I had almost finished a super-long & thoughtful response to this when my computer died because the plug had come loose..... here it goes again!!]

It took me a while, but I finally got through this whole thread - whew! I wanted to touch base on the concept that seems to be a bit touchy: "punishment". The way I look at it, there are only two types of love that are in present in relationships: Unconditional Love (no exceptions, no judgments), and Transactional Love (bargaining, manipulation, control). The feeling I got from most unschooling parents who replied to this thread with a steady, "yes, it is punishment!" are probably responding from the inner recognition of the lack of Unconditional Love in such a setting. James, it is clear that you love your son, and that is far from the issue being discussed here. Whether or not you are able to see that is totally up to you.

In our culture, most of the relationships we see modeled are based entirely on Transaction. If you take out the trash, I'll clean the kitchen. If you put him to bed tonight, I'll put him to bed tomorrow. If you quit smoking, I'll stop buying shoes. The list goes on. And the problem is that all of these types of agreements have nothing to do with accepting each other exactly how we are or supporting that in its unfoldment. Unconditional Love means loving someone no matter how stinky or lazy, no matter how inconsiderate or short-sighted. And not only loving them, but allowing them to be who they are in our space. If we have issues with the stinkiness or laziness, we - as unschooling parents - get to look at our own attachment to cleanliness or need for doing. If we have issues they are our own to handle or manage, not our child's.

Children's minds work different than adults. As someone else (Meredith?) stated, an adult can look at a withdraw of something without taking it personally (even though that might still be our first response before we examine further), but a child doesn't have that mental capability. A child perceives love as attention, acceptance, and care. Withdrawing any of these things can psychologically be perceived as withholding love and have long-term effects.

It isn't an easy task to attempt to love someone Unconditionally, but the rewards are great. It even sets the tone for others to accept you in the same manner. Any time you catch yourself wanting to change something outside of yourself (like another's behavior) its an opportunity to look within and ask if you are coming from Unconditional Love, or Transactional. This applies also to your idea of "self-protection." It isn't up to others around us (no matter how much they love us) to create a space of safety for ourselves; it is up to us. If we feel we need to "do" something to protect ourselves, that is again an opportunity to look at the story we are telling ourselves. Why do we feel unsafe in the first place? Who's job is it to "make" us feel safe? What are we protecting ourselves from? These inner questions can help us resolve old issues that may be effecting our own feelings of safety. Then we won't need to go to our children for them to "make" us feel safer or fit into our own idea of what safe is.

Finally, I wanted to quote from an awesome book I am currently reading entitled, Undefended Love by Jett Psaris & Marlena Lyons. I think the principles in this book are in direct alignment with unschooling, for they get to the core of intimate relationship with any person, including ourselves and absolutely applying to our children.

First a quote for all of us individually, applied to communication and any relationship: "Challenge and liberate yourself from your own defensiveness before you try to critique and evaluate the behaviors and reactions of others." I believe we are all trying to do this, which is what makes unschooling so powerful for all involved.

The last quote is from the chapter talking about how all of us in our development begin to perceive ourselves as anything but whole, and of course it talks a lot about the relationship to the parent(s). Specifically it is talking about the unconscious tendency for children to adapt to make the parents happy without even realizing that is what they are doing. I think this is an important factor in the discussion. They say, "...if we were crying and [our parents] did not know how to ease our pain, they may have felt inadequate. We may then have responded to their need to feel capable by denying or controlling what we were experiencing. In this way we learned that to stay in relationship with them we had to disconnect from our internal life." This is where the transaction comes in, and we have unconsciously created a Transactional relationship with our own child.

Hope this helps, wanted to put in my two (or twelve) cents in. Really glad to be here and hoping to meld into the group :).

To the Vision of Truth,

STarr

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-This applies also to your idea of "self-protection." It isn't up to others around us (no matter how much they love us) to create a space of safety for ourselves; it is up to us.-=-

Would you say that applies to a four year old, or are you categorizing children separate from people?

-=-Why do we feel unsafe in the first place? Who's job is it to "make" us feel safe?-=-

It's my job to help my children feel safe, and to make them as safe as I can make them, within my knowledge and resources, within the principles my husband and I decided together to live by as we had children come along.

-=-Specifically it is talking about the unconscious tendency for children to adapt to make the parents happy without even realizing that is what they are doing.-=-

I adapt to help make my husband and children happy. Is it better if I know I'm doing it than if I had the ability to do that without even realizing it? Some of my decisions are made from an awareness of my neighbors' preferences and needs, consciously on my part.

There are many hundreds of stops between your two labels of unconditional and transactional. Anytime it seems the world or any part of it is divided in two, that's dualism, and probably could use some balance.

[Starr Sheppard-Decker]

-=-This applies also to your idea of "self-protection." It isn't up to others around us (no matter how much they love us) to create a space of safety for ourselves; it is up to us.-=-
Would you say that applies to a four year old, or are you categorizing children separate from people? -=-Why do we feel unsafe in the first place? Who's job is it to "make" us feel safe?-=- It's my job to help my children feel safe, and to make them as safe as I can make them, within my knowledge and resources, within the principles my husband and I decided together to live by as we had children come along.

I apologize for not being clear here - thanks for giving me an opportunity to clarify. I was specifically talking about adults, and no I don't think children are separate. Though I agree with what was said earlier in this thread about the difference between treating the son like he is another adult in the group and taking full responsibility for his care and safety. I absolutely agree that it is our job to keep our children safe. I was attempting to state that it is not our children's job to meet our requirements for our safety as adults.

-=-Specifically it is talking about the unconscious tendency for children to adapt to make the parents happy without even realizing that is what they are doing.-=- I adapt to help make my husband and children happy. Is it better if I know I'm doing it than if I had the ability to do that without even realizing it? Some of my decisions are made from an awareness of my neighbors' preferences and needs, consciously on my part.

An adult adapting out of compassion for another with not strings and/or guilt attached is fabulous, and I don't see it not fitting in the category of Unconditional Love. I (and the authors) am speaking more to a parent who may not understand that children will adapt their behavior out of guilt or a sense of obligation to the parent without being consciously aware of doing so. The whole conversation about bargaining with the son to take a shower seemed to fit into this category, and I thought the example from the book would help James to see the effect of this view of bargaining being 'ok' or 'not punishment'. Forgive me if I did not articulate that well; I had been sitting at the computer a long time and this was my 2nd attempt at articulation.

There are many hundreds of stops between your two labels of unconditional and transactional. Anytime it seems the world or any part of it is divided in two, that's dualism, and probably could use some balance.

While I agree mostly with what you say here, I also think there are underlying root causes that can be pretty black and white. Like love and fear. There are myriads of gray areas in between, yet most of them can be broken down to a core feeling of one or the other.

In the end, if we are doing something for someone with an expectation of something in return, we are setting ourselves up for possible 'failure' according to our original expectation. When we love someone unconditionally, we will naturally support them and do loving things with no strings attached and no defenses. This, I think, is the type of relationship we are all striving for with our children. Hopefully this helps articulate the points I was trying to make, as it seems I wasn't as clear as I could have been.

STarr

[melissa]

"Children need parents to make choices for them because it makes them feel safe and secure."

this sentence is usually phrased a bit differently, in my experience:
"children need parents to set limits for them because it makes them feel safe and secure."
Making choices for someone else basically comes down to limits, in my opinion.
maybe that would help your answer?
xxmelissa
in italy
mamma di 7

"There is a Place beyond Rightness and Wrongness -- let us meet There." §Rumi

[Sandra Dodd]

Good point, Melissa!

When we talk about "making choices" maybe some people see it as justification for choosing to limit. Or see it about choosing for someone else (a.k.a. "control").

[melissa]

Sandra Dodd said:

When we talk about "making choices" maybe some people see it as justification for choosing to limit. Or see it about choosing for someone else (a.k.a. "control").

yes, it is choosing for someone else that bothers me...how can one choose for another, without actually limiting in some way? be it learning or choices or...

If I choose for my child her bed time, when she is not ready for bed, Im not choosing her bedtime anymore but rather limiting her choices.

that is what Im seeing here.
ive gotta go-busy room full of children making costumes-
xxmelissa

[mamaluna]

thanks for these beautiful and wise words. will take in all of it!

Joyce Fetteroll said:

You could agree, along the same vein as others have suggested, that if the choice is between making choices for kids or abandoning kids to go it alone, then yes, definitely, making choices for them will make them feel more safe and secure.

But you're not talking about only those two choices. You're talking about something else entirely: being on their team to support their explorations. Rather than leading them to the right choice (or handing it to them), we can support them in their decision making and support them in thinking about and fixing things that didn't turn out as expected. The benefit is they learn how to make choices rather than memorize someone else's right choices.

It seems to make sense to wait until the kids are older and have more life experience before we let them make decisions, but by that time they're faced with more dangerous decisions and we wouldn't want them testing out fledgling decision making skills on whether to ride home with someone who has been drinking or whether to let biology overwhelm half-thought-through ideas on why that might not be a good idea.

It's better to start early when their most "dangerous" choices involve staying up all night or eating as many Oreos as they want. While it's extreme, what can put the problem in perspective is asking yourself, "Who's going to die?"

A child staying up all night looks like a recipe for a disastrous next day, but in the bigger picture, they'll learn a ton by experiencing it for themselves rather than being told why that experience will be bad. (Because there will, in fact, be good parts about it!) They'll learn more about themselves and their body's limits. They may even need to explore staying up several times for the cons to outweigh the pros. They may need some help thinking through the consequences (like getting up and out to a morning play date) or dealing with the aftermath (being snippy with people the next day).

If it's a bigger choice, like whether to go to a particular summer camp, we can help them with decision making strategies like writing out the pros and cons and ranking them. Every time they think something through, ever time they experience the good and bad parts of their choices (with us there to support them) they learn more about how to make better choices. And that will serve them far better in the future than memorizing someone else's right choices.