Finding support for a bumpy transition to a more radical style

[Sarah B]

I'm new here.  Not new to unschooling, but we've been transitioning to a more radical style, especially this summer with bedtimes, relaxing TV limits and being more free with their choices for eating.  Much of it has come naturally as they have aged.  It has been a bumpy transition.  Some good-- alot good, in fact, but some bad.  I don't claim to be a radical unschooler, but we are working our way in that direction.

I would love to hear from you about your transitions, if this has not been your modus operandi since the beginning.  This is one of the reasons I've joined this board-- to listen and learn and be inspired.  I don't really have much to offer others as we have yet to make the leap to a fully radical, whole-life unschooling.  We still need to learn to balance other's needs, respect towards others (my oldest. 7.5, can be particularly cantankerous when she's in a mood).  We also have only one bedroom right now, so..... yeah.  

Thanks in advance.  

[Joyce Fetteroll]

What specific things are you having problems with? Every family is unique so the mix of problems will be unique.

If by "we" balancing needs you mean your kids need to learn how too, that may be where you're running into problems. It can help to assume the kids are doing the best they can with the skills and understanding of the world they currently have and you help them do better. The principles are your tools to use to solve problems, not new rules to impose on them.

As an adult you have greater abilities to sense the dynamics of the group and redirect if they're headed  downward, to know when hunger or tiredness or overwhelmedness may be a factor and head that off before it becomes an issue. To have a better sense of the big picture to help with solutions for everyone rather than just one person.

Young kids really can't focus on the needs of others. They need you to help them meet their needs AND take others into account. They will grasp this better the more they see you doing while helping them get what they want.

Sorry that's so vague but without specifics to go on, it kinda ends up being that way ;-)

In the meantime, there's loads of ideas in the archives here and at Sandra Dodd's Radical Unschooling site and my Joyfully Rejoycing site.

Two other resources that are helpful are Scott Noelle's Daily Grove (a practical tip each week day), and Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child.

Joyce

[Sarah B]

Thanks.  

One of the biggest struggles for me has been my 7.5's need or desire to have everything her way, especially in regards to her sister.  She puts up monsterous fusses when it's my 5.5yo's turn to choose videos, will choose books and videos just because dd2 hates them (increasingly difficult) is always making comments that are hurtful.  It seems that whenever she is in a less-than-glorious mood she finds new and interesting ways to put down, insult, and push her sister around.  It seems to be all the time.  This is no small problem and has been an issue since the day we brought dd2 home.

That's less about seeking ways to have a say in what happens and when in the house, but it really puts me on edge and causes no end of disharmony in the house.  They both have their misbehavior and thoughtlessness, but dd1 has a corner on pure meanness towards her sister.  I am so weary of it.

Specific problem: every summer I have tried exploring relaxed bedtimes or no bedtimes.  This summer has been a great start.  They still love the bedtime routines.  Where the trouble lies is that after bedtime seems to be the cue to start the best, loudest, funnest play of the day.  If they were grouchy before, suddenly that evaporates.  Then they don't calm down.  

Trouble?  This is my bedtime, too.  I wouldn't mind if they stayed up or went to bed, really, but this needs to be *quiet* time.  Last night was calmer and better, but the night before they didn't fall asleep until well after 10.  DD2 is getting short on sleep so she can break down and scream at everybody the next day.  Now we are in our new house which only has one bedroom now.  Uff da!  

Bedtime is our biggest difficulty, in no small part because I am really tired.  I have tried just going to bed, but in the past they have just started fighting while getting ready.  They are more cheerful now, just way too energetic.  They have plenty of time to burn off the excess before.  (Background: they have snacks and drinks at stories, so teeth brushing comes after, plus we are allergic to dustmites, so fresh clothes are a must after the couch.  That's why we do this after.)  I'm glad they don't fight so much getting ready, but this is frustrating.

For my part, I have come a long way from the shouting dictator, but I am still incredibly impatient this time of the day.  I'm tired of being the referee, mostly.  (If the playing field between them was more level, I could feel comfortable backing off, but it is not.)  I fully recognize that some of that troubles with bossiness lands fully on my shoulders.

This has all been a back-and-forth exploration of trying to find our way to a place where we can make choices that won't impact others negatively.  Exploring trying to have patience (me-- especially when words and explanations just don't seem to bring understanding.  I'm not meaning compliance, just understanding and dialogue.  This can be infinitely difficult for me, and I guess it just comes with the age.)  I'm learning to not just fall back on laying down the consequences to get what I want from them.  

Like I said, transitions for all of us.  

Thanks for the links.  I have really enjoyed reading them.  They will be infinitely helpful and they are already inspiring me.

[Meredith]

dd1 has a corner on pure meanness towards her sister.  I am so weary of it.

It can help  a whole lot to look for your child's perspective - beyond finding ways to be compassionate, it lets you problem solve more thoughtfully if you have some idea what the issues are from her point of view. From the pov of an older child, she's been robbed. Some other kid showed up and stole her parents, her home, her life. You can't make that other person go away but you can make life sweeter and kinder for your firstborn. Look for the specific ways she feels a sense of lack or helplessness due to having a sibling and then actively look for ways to create a sense of abundance and empowerment. For instance:

She puts up monsterous fusses when it's my 5.5yo's turn to choose videos, will choose books and videos just because dd2 hates them 

Taking turns isn't working - it's a reminder to your older child that someone else stole her life. Maybe you can modify the turn taking so that she gets to choose the majority of the time, but chances are a better solution is to drop the whole idea and look for a way for them both to watch the shows and movies they want and read the stories they want. Maybe one can watch a movie while you read to the other. Maybe you can have one watch a movie on a laptop while the other uses the tv. Create more and better options than "suck it up and accept what sissy wants" - it may not seem to you like that's what you're saying, but your daughter feels it. 

It's also important to create venues where one child can do the things the other dislikes for another reasons - having the pressure of another person's disapproval creates a kind of limit, and limits make things more valuable. So the very shows and movies and stories someone in the family dislikes are automatically more interesting, regardless of how one feels toward that person. It's not Just meanness which is making her pick those things - it's part of the natural reaction toward limits. 

Bedtime is our biggest difficulty, in no small part because I am really tired

Can you find other times or ways to rest or nap? Do your kids need less sleep than you do? Or are you counting on mornings when they're asleep to get things done, have some time to yourself? It helps a whole lot to step back from ideas about bedtimes and think of getting enough sleep as a kind of logistical puzzle. If the kids are tending to stay up later, then it's time to rearrange the normal daily schedule to accomodate that. Maybe it means you sleep in and find other times and ways to get the dishes done (or whatever). Maybe it means finding a time in the middle of the day when the kids tend to be wrapped up in projects or watching movies or playing games to grab a nap. Maybe you do some combination of things for now, including some days being more tired than you like, until the excitement of "getting to stay up" wanes and you can find yet another, different rhythm. 

It's possible to plan for and around tiredness. It means slimming down outings and doing more mellow things at home, and that's not a bad thing so long as you're not chafing and fretting about it. It's okay to have long slow days where not much happens. It's also possible to plan your days around when you're likely to be tired. For instance, I turn into a zombie at night, and I know it, so I plan for it. If there are snacks to be made or complex problems solved, I do those earlier in the day to set myself up to be more on auto pilot in the evenings. I can Get snacks, but not make them. I can watch tv but not help someone figure out how to download something or debug a program. 

If evenings are hard for you, it could help to pare down your "getting ready" routine to a barest minimum. If stories are a matter for contention, that's a good thing to schedule into a different part of the day and there aren't issues about "turns". If you have multiple options for movies, so they aren't taking turns, that will make evenings calmer, too.

If the girls have a lot of energy in the evenings, maybe plan some active things they can do separately. The key is to do the planning and setup earlier so "zombie mama" just has to provide backup. What sorts of active things depend on their interests. It could be a bath, or running around outside, jumping on a trampoline, balancing on an exercise ball, playing a really energetic game on the Wii, jumping rope, playing on a scooter... depends. 

[Joyce Fetteroll]

It sounds like your oldest is feeling the strain of sharing you. Have you read Siblings Without Rivalry? Really good book to not only help your kids but help you to figure out what part you may inadvertently be playing in creating the tension.

*** but dd1 has a corner on pure meanness towards her sister ***

It helps hugely to see this as communication. She's not being a bully. She's trying to meet a need that she has no clue how to meet in a kind way. Life feels out of her control.

From *her* point of view you're ignoring her need and focusing on the poor way she's trying to meet it. But offering no alternatives and no support.

The more you can help her feel special and needed, the less you can make her feel like the toy you set aside for the shiny new one, the less angry she'll feel. Imagine how you would feel if your husband brought home a brand new wife because he "loved the first one so much". And what if he expected you to be the grown up wife and be nice to the new wife while he tended to the very needy new wife?

*** They have plenty of time to burn off the excess before.  (Background: they have snacks and drinks at stories ***

Their actions may be saying your belief they've had "enough" is faulty! ;-) Or perhaps the snacks are re-energizing them. Perhaps snacks earlier in the evening, not so close to bed.

Some people find it helps to turn the lights down, turn the sound down, turn the activity level down to ease their children into sleep mode. But some people find what their kids really need is a last expenditure of energy so they bounce on a trampoline or something. What your kids need is very dependent on them! 

*** For my part, I have come a long way from the shouting dictator, but I am still incredibly impatient this time of the day.  I'm tired of being the referee, mostly. ***

The biggest block is your *expectation* that they'll wind down. They're not living up to your expectation so you're getting disappointed each evening and therefore frustrated.

The more you pull them in the direction you want them to go, the more they'll resist. If you create an environment that supports them getting to sleep when they're tired -- sorry that's a big vague but hopefully others will have practical ideas! -- and let go of the pressure, you'll removed a big factor that very well may be causing them to resist both you and sleep.

Sandra Dodd's page onSleep probably has quite a few stories and suggestions.

Joyce

[Sarah B]

From *her* point of view you're ignoring her need and focusing on the poor way she's trying to meet it. But offering no alternatives and no support.

The more you can help her feel special and needed, the less you can make her feel like the toy you set aside for the shiny new one, the less angry she'll feel. Imagine how you would feel if your husband brought home a brand new wife because he "loved the first one so much". And what if he expected you to be the grown up wife and be nice to the new wife while he tended to the very needy new wife?

Your example cracked me up.  Yes, I am focussing too much on correcting her behavior.  I am trying to find where I can fulfill her need for me, for attention.  I have to focus on this from all angles.  I get a bit frustrated, though, because, just like when she was a baby, this child acts as if Everything and All of My Attention are still not enough for her.  That's how it has always seemed.  Turn taking (for videos) started because of her complete domination of the video selection process (and also the general mayhem for anyone's suggestion).  Yes, I think this one is a bit outdated, though it mostly worked for a time.  But, like I said, I have reason to think she would not be satisfied unless she had her way and her choice all the time.  

Yes, I've read Sw/oR a couple of times, and it has been very helpful.  The examples she uses are pretty easy, though.  Mom compares, angers daughters.  What she doesn't address is a kid like dd1 who sees nearly every interaction with dd2 as a challenge for my attention.  It sounds like I'm exaggerating, but I am absolutely not.  It doesn't talk about when a child's expectations are beyond the norm.  

Yeah, my expectation that they'll wind down is pretty warped apparently, which is why I've been trying other ways of approaching it.  The bedtime routines are set in stone in their eyes, so that won't change much.  We do need to back off the snacks, though.  Unfortunately, my sleep needs and dd1's are about the same.  I get out of bed no earlier than 1/2 an hour.  We need to work with the assumption that we go to bed together, or that there is quiet time in the evenings.  Perhaps I can be more proactive about setting up quiet activities, but it can be hard when this is their best time of the day.  If it weren't for the fact that they can't settle down in time to get themselves enough rest, this exuberant time of day can actually be a great down time for me.  But, like I said, this is less than perfect too.  

In my first post, I brushed off the trouble with dd1's treatment of her sister, but yesterday was just awful, and I realized that this is setting the tone for the entire day.  It is really bad.  We need to work on both the source of the problem and the meanness.  You're right in that I can't work on just correcting her words and actions.  

Anyway, I need to leave it there, speaking of challenges for my attention.  Thanks for the replies.  I'm afraid my first round of trying a more radical approach just flunked.  Last night, very calmly (I'm at least proud I did not explode in anger and frustration) I laid down the law, so to speak.  Actually, though, I think I handled it quite well.  Stories were abandoned, she didn't get her ride to the bedroom.  I simply just left and got ready for bed.  So, perhaps I didn't flunk so spectacularly after all.  It did please dd1 immensely, after a very difficult and upsetting afternoon, that the day ended with dd2 having an absolute screaming tizzy about me not bringing her her toast to the couch (she never actually asked me, just yelled toast TOAST!)  She said,  "Wow.  I'm the calm one now."

Still working all this out.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

*** But, like I said, I have reason to think she would not be satisfied unless she had her way and her choice all the time. ***

 

Well, if you needed 20 of something but only ever got 18, you'd spend all your time trying to get those last 2. So it would seem like you wanted something ALL THE TIME and were never satisfied. When in truth if you were given the other 2 and had access to as much as you wanted, you wouldn't seem needy at all.

 

So she may be asking for way more than what she needs just because no matter what she does she can't get that last little bit. (And the lack will make her want more than she really needs. It's what scarcity does.)

 

The more control you can give her over as many aspects of her life as you can, the more "full" she'll feel.

 

BUT, that said, some kids do need way more than others. Have you read Ross Greene's The Explosive Child?

http://amzn.to/JCilMW

And Raising Your Spirited Child Rev Ed: A Guide for Parents Whose Child Is More Intense, Sensitive, Perceptive, Persistent, and Energetic by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka
http://amzn.to/IKBN4R

I've heard so may people say they finally get their child after reading those :-)

 

Joyce

[Sarah B]

No, I haven't read them, but those titles sound really great.  You're right in all regards-- she always wants that last 2, but her needs are far, far higher than it is easy to accommodate.  Thanks for the recommendations, I'll have to hit the library.

Among other activities we did, we talked a bit more today.  I asked each one, privately, what they can ask of me to make them feel as loved as the other.  They enjoyed this question, and I received age appropriate answers: dd2 wanted help with her hiccups, and dd1 wants to race.  :)

More work.  I hope this slow start is an actual beginning and not a false trail.

[Meredith]

My stepson was one of those kids who needed a huge amount of attention - it seemed outrageous that giving him more attention was even feasible. It helped a lot to actively offer time and care rather than wait for him to start clamoring - that took some practice and a shift in perspective because I had gotten into the habit of resisting offering attention and grabbing a couple extra minutes (sometimes seconds) of time for myself. When you offer attention more proactively, you gain a bit more control, though, which can feel better than that sense of continual overwhelm from dealing with your high-needs kid.

 

The other advantage to offering more attention sooner is that you actually can start to "get ahead" - and that's a Big Deal because then the vast majority of the attention your kid is getting is positive, rather than negative, so it has more value. Negative attention is hard on self-esteem, so it leaves a kid Even Needier - yikes! Offering attention sooner lets you offer more positive attention and your child feels better as a result. In that same vein, it also  helps a lot to actively look for good things about your child - notice to yourself and out loud to her when she's a little more patient, a little more helpful, a little kinder. That gives her a little more positive attention And it keeps a "good kid versus bad kid" dynamic from developing between your children... or starts to break it up if it exists already.

 

On top of all that, offering attention sooner doesn't "cost" as much of your own energy as you think it will. You get a little more control, a little more positivity, and (and this is a big one) because your child doesn't have to clamor so much to get her needs met, you're spending less time and energy dealing with "bad behavior".

Don't expect perfection or overnight success ;) Go gently with yourself and your kids. I know it can be daunting to have a child who needs soooooo much, but I also know that even in a less than idea situation it's possible for little changes to have a big overall effect.

[Sarah B]

Meredith, thank you for your reply.  This is exactly what is needed.