Food choices vs food restrictions question

[Tammy]

Hi all. 

 

We started unschooling about 5 years ago . It started with only the schooling part of our lives and since that seemed relatively easy for me to do I read more I tried to expand the same type philosophy into other parts of our lives ( chores , food , TV etc.) Thats where I have the problem. I can't seem to let go of traditional lines of thinking in some areas  . The main question I am having  is in regards to food choices.

 

I have let go in a false sense of the word . I did lift the restrictions but I don't feel like I really let go of it in my mind. I just don't buy stuff I don't want them eating alot of ( candies , cakes , soda's etc.) and since they just eat whatever is here they really don't say much.  So I really haven't made the switch to letting go of restrictions I just found a way around it in a sense.  I just don't trust the process.

 

My problem with it all boils down to me .... I ate lots of junk as a kid ( and loved it ) now as an adult I eat healthy and work out but I still really love "junk" and to be honest would eat nothing but junk all day , everyday , happily if I could. I love the flavor and taste of  "junk" I only eat healthy because I have to for my health , not because I enjoy the flavor or food.  . My fear with letting them eat what they want is based on , well , me.   I see how hard it is for me to eat healthy when I really  only want junk so how can I trust they will not eat junk 24/7 if when based on my past..I didn't learn that. I mean I know I eat healthy now and that is a choice , but its a choice based on fear of what I would look like or that I will have a heart attack from eating junk all the time not based on.." hey , I like this food ."

 

How do I let them eat whatever they want when I know I may be setting them up for a lifetime of crappy eating habits.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sandra Dodd]

I don't think you should call anything "junk."
Giving them choices of what you have in the house is fine.
Make it interesting. Don't define some food as evil, because that in itself is a problem.

Negativity and fear are worse than "crappy eating habits."

The years they'll be eating and growing up should be enough time for you to change if you really look at what the possibilities and realities of choices and limitations are.

http://sandradodd.com/food

[Tammy]

Sandra Dodd said:

I don't think you should call anything "junk."
Giving them choices of what you have in the house is fine.
Make it interesting. Don't define some food as evil, because that in itself is a problem.

Negativity and fear are worse than "crappy eating habits."

The years they'll be eating and growing up should be enough time for you to change if you really look at what the possibilities and realities of choices and limitations are.

http://sandradodd.com/food

I agree negativity and fear are worse than crappy eating habits but what has caused my fear is my own lifetime of crappy eating habits. How do I let go of the fear of them making life long bad choices if as an adult I still don't have good eating habits because of what I ate a child?

I guess I'm asking how is it OK to let them have whatever they want if that sets them up for a lifetime of wanting to eat junk and unhealthy foods? ( I know I shouldn't categorize foods such as junk and healthy but for the purpose of this discussion I did it so you would understand what foods I mean) I am speaking from my own experience of doing just that. I was allowed the junk , loved the junk and now its a struggle or me to eat healthy. I only do it for my health not because I enjoy it.

I don't want my kids to have to go down this same path. I feel like I am setting them up for a lifetime of struggle and failure.

[Mary]

You said you ate lots of 'junk' as a child and believe that this is why you would prefer to eat it now.

But how did you feel about it at the time? Were you ashamed? Were there people around judging your choices?

Isn't it possible that you enjoy/crave these foods simply because you do and that maybe you would even if you were raised, for example, as a raw food vegan?

[Tammy]

Mary said:

You said you ate lots of 'junk' as a child and believe that this is why you would prefer to eat it now.

But how did you feel about it at the time? Were you ashamed? Were there people around judging your choices?

Isn't it possible that you enjoy/crave these foods simply because you do and that maybe you would even if you were raised, for example, as a raw food vegan?

Would I like it just as much if I was raised without it ..... I haven't a clue! But I think maybe having access to it whenever I wanted made it easier for me to want it.


For example , my oldest is grown and moved out. My parenting style with him ( in regards to food) was different than with my younger children. He didn't have sugar / junk at all until he was about three ( with the exception of his birthday cakes) and after that he rarely had sweets or sugary snacks. To this day he doesn't eat candy and sugary things. No ones forcing him not to now ...It's just he doesn't have a taste for it. As an adult who is free to eat what he likes and buy his own food ...he chooses what he ate as a child , all healthy foods.

Thats what is making me very hesitant to let my other kids eat what they choose. I can see ( using my own life as an example ) ....I ate junk freely and I crave junk..... My son didn't and he without a doubt is beyond healthy not just because he has to eat that way , but because he enjoys it.

So I feel I will be setting my younger kids up for a lifetime of hard to break habits if I give them free reign over food choices.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

*** So I really haven't made the switch to letting go of restrictions I just found a way around it in a sense. I just don't trust the process. ***

Maybe you're picturing replacing your healthy choices for them with "junky" kid choices. But in practice, a home with choice looks like Mom choices with other people adding their choices to the list.

*** My problem with it all boils down to me .... I ate lots of junk as a kid ( and loved it ) now as an adult I eat healthy and work out but I still really love "junk" and to be honest would eat nothing but junk all day , everyday , happily if I could. I love the flavor and taste of "junk" I only eat healthy because I have to for my health , not because I enjoy the flavor or food. ***

It sounds logical but there are several factors going on that are easier to see when you see the process more objectively rather than through fear colored glasses.

Kids tend to gravitate towards snacky foods because 1) they're easy so take less time from more interesting things to grab and eat and 2) kids have small stomachs and large calorie needs so are naturally drawn to foods that are calorie dense. As an example kids tend to like very sweet cereals. Society suggests that's because kids haven't learned to eat right and need taught by wiser adults. But kids who are allowed sweet cereals with no hint that their choices are wrong or that limits will be imposed, naturally drift to less and less sweet foods because their stomachs are bigger and they don't need the concentrated calories.

Adults can interfere with that natural process of shifting their eating with their needs by creating artificial limits. As with anything that people really like that's limited, people tend to want to horde and gorge on as much as they can before it disappears. Parents who limit whatever their kids love (sugar, TV, video games) run the risk of kids craving it long beyond when they would have outgrown it.

I would have said the same thing me and sweet things, that I would eat them exclusively. I had proof. I once at 3 bags of candy that I was supposed to hand out the week before Halloween. I knew I couldn't keep candy in the house. But what I actually knew was how I behaved under deprivation. The only time candy came near me was at Halloween. And if I didn't eat it right now, it wasn't going to reappear for a whole year.

But when people don't live in a state of deprivation but of abundance, people choose because they want something, not because they crave it. I would bet -- because I've proved it on myself -- that if you bought more than you thought your could eat of your favorite "junk" foods, and *promised* yourself you'd buy more as soon as they were gone, that you might eat a lot at the beginning, but the last bag will just sit.

Dunkin' Donuts has the policy of letting their employees eat as many donuts as they want because they know by the 3rd day, people are sick of donuts!

*** but its a choice based on fear of what I would look like or that I will have a heart attack from eating junk all the time not based on.." hey , I like this food ." ***

Which is one reason why basing decisions on fear isn't a good strategy! Sometimes it's convenient and when decisions affect only the person deciding and the challenge of challenging the fears doesn't interest him or her, usually not a big deal. But when fears spill over onto kids and spouses, it affects relationships and their own thoughtful interactions with the world.

*** I can see ( using my own life as an example ) ....I ate junk freely and I crave junk..... My son didn't and he without a doubt is beyond healthy not just because he has to eat that way , but because he enjoys it. ***

While a reasonable conclusion, it's a *very* limited sample. After reading people's experiences -- their own and with their kids -- for 15 years, it's easier to see patterns.

Some people do have more of a sweet tooth. If your son didn't much like sweet things, it could be your son didn't feel limited by your choices for him. If he had craved sweets, though -- and it's happened over and over with people -- he could have gone the opposite route gorging on what he could never get enough of as a kid. And those issues can stick with people for a long time.

I'm coming to suspect that some adult issues with food, even if they didn't feel deprived as kids (which I didn't), come from emotional eating. Eating is comforting and soothing. And unfortunately the results and "cures" add more stress which makes them harder to choose. But instead of taking emotional eating away (which would be stressful), it's better to add in some other stress relievers to life. Make it easier to choose a more healthful choice.

Sandra gave a link to her food page. There's also some information on mine: Joyfully Rejoycing. Scroll down the right side, about halfway down. See especially the video, second one down: Obesity begins at home.

*** How do I let them eat whatever they want when I know I may be setting them up for a lifetime of crappy eating habits. ***

By reading more thoughtful discussions about food and less about fear of food.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

** I explain to my kids that some foods aren't ethically or environmentally sound ***

Living with values means making sacrifices for something we feel is worth it. And over time they feel less like sacrifices and more like choices.

*But* when we impose our values on someone else we're deciding they need to make sacrifices for what we feel is worth it.

Right now your kids are young and for some personality types, it's comforting to have Mom and Dad weeding through the mass of choices in the world and picking the best. Some people do find choice overwhelming. It could be genetically they're drawn to the kinds of foods you offer. It could be you are able to make the limitations feel joyful.

So it feels like what you're doing is working. But it's not good general advice. It's too dependent on factors (skills, biology, personality) that aren't transferable with the advice. For many families, mom deciding what the kids can eat -- even with reasons that sound good to her -- results in damage to the relationship. It's human nature to want to explore to find what we like and dislike. It works against human nature.

If your husband decided, for reasons that made sense to him, that some movies and books were bad for your soul and your favorites were on his list, would you feel closer to him and his beliefs? Would it feel like love? Or would it feel like he had control issues?

What if you saw a movie ad and said it looked good and it prompted an explanation from him about how it wouldn't be good for you? Would you feel loved and protected and warm and squishy toward him and his ideas? What if it nearly every time you mentioned something that appealed to you that he disapproved of? Wouldn't you feel less like sharing who you really were with him? Might your lack of ideas against his start to look to him like you were agreeing with his beliefs?

You're absolutely positively certain your ideas are right and you just need to explain. For kids who like rules, it seems to work. For kids who like to find out for themselves, it puts the values before the child and strains the relationship.

Control is an illusion. And your kids -- because of the mix of personalities -- are maintaining the illusion for you. But do they feel free -- emotionally and physically -- to explore ideas outside of yours, to find out who *they* are separate from you? Do they feel they could do it without your disapproval and without your hope that they'd be smart enough to figure out you're right and they're wrong?

What if your husband let you explore movies and books but worried about the choices you were making? What if you felt like he was watching you, judging your choices, waiting for negative signs that he knew would be coming to prove him right and you wrong?

Imposing values on someone else, limiting their choices, tends to damage relationships. As it would if your husband chose what you could and couldn't read. Right now it's "working" (for whatever reasons). Maybe it will continue to work for your family.

For unschooling to flourish, it's about helping kids explore who they are, finding ways for them to explore that are safe, respectful and doable for a particular family.

For instance, some families who are into natural foods, will, when the kids want to try foods outside the range that mom normally buys, offer a taste test, buying several different versions of chocolate sandwich cookies from Oreos, to Newman-Os and other varieties. If the kids decide that Nabisco tastes best, there's no guilt tied to their preference. And Mom will happily buy Oreos and anything else the kids like while still providing what she feels is a healthy foundation. Most kids really don't want to choose everything that is provided. (Most kids ;-) Mom still gets to do the bulk of the providing. But kids -- like all human beings -- do like choice and like having their preferences honored without guilt or explanations of why they're not choosing right.

I think the decision to not eat meat for ethical reasons is a noble one but I don't want someone telling me what my ethics should be and how I need to limit my life to conform to their idea of right. It makes me -- even if I agree with them! -- want to reject their idea because I want to reject control. That's human nature. We don't like others telling us who we should be.

*** and since these things are important to me, I can vote with the money I spend. ***

But you get to dictate what your kids are allowed to have.

Choice is choice for ourselves, but when we choose for others, it's control. Is that the strategy you want your kids to use when their values clash with others as they go through life? It's what you're modeling for them. You have the opportunity to show them how to live peacefully and respectfully with others, but you're using tactics of power and control. Is that what you want to do?

*** My children are completely excepting of this and I do not see it as being "bossy" ***

The person in control rarely does! If they're treating others with what they feel is gentle control, they feel magnanimous.

Allowing kids to choose is *hard*. It causes fear. It can grate against our values. But when we support who kids are, when we offer our guidance (without pressure to choose as we do) we grow relationships. And great relationships make life *much* easier when kids are teens and it's natural to pull away than if childhood is spent confining who they are to who we want them to be. For many kids, the values get rejected along with the control because kids are driven (biologically) to want to pull away and their choices aren't Oreos but sex and alcohol.

*** I just do not want GMO's in my kids bodies anymore then i can possibly help. ***

Kids don't want to die. But if foods that a child finds intriguing, that a child sees other kids who are healthy and happy eating -- are treated as though they were as poisonous as Drano, it can erode trust and confidence that the parent knows what they're talking about.

Kids are far more likely to turn our values over thoughtfully if they're shared as what we believe, and why we make the decisions for ourselves. If the values are imposed on them, it runs the risk of the kids rejecting the values because they want control of who they are.

[Meredith]

I just don't buy stuff I don't want them eating alot of ( candies , cakes , soda's etc.) and since they just eat whatever is here they really don't say much.

Your kids (at home) are 12 and 15 - do you ask their input when you shop or make out a grocery list? If not, its worth asking! Then if they want some things you don't usually buy you can practice saying yes a little more - just a little to start - and see what happens.

Depending on their personalities, it may also be a good idea to talk to them about your fears and issues. If one or both of them is more like you - has more of a taste for sweets and salty things - rather than being like their older brother, then it might be a good idea to work together to find sweet and salty things that y'all can feel good about eating.

The foods my parents ate mostly didn't appeal to me, so I gravitated toward convenience foods. For a time I thought I liked those better, and got all wrapped up in ideas of "addictive" additives and whatnot. The thing is, I'm passionate about eating - I couldn't do what you're doing and just eat for fuel, I revel in tastes and textures. So I searched for more nutritious foods I could adore - and found them! I discovered that it wasn't so much that I liked processed foods, it was that my parents weren't providing "healthy" foods that were good for me. Their idea of health was too lean, and my body clamored for something with more fats, more salts, more sugars. Eventually I learned to cook richer foods - I found the diet that worked for me.

Anyway, I'm sharing all that to let you know that, like me, it may not be processed foods specifically that you like, but you haven't found the foods that are just right for you. Whichever processed foods you love the most, it could be really beneficial to learn to make them yourself with all natural ingredients.

[Bruce Mitchell]

Joyce said: I don't want someone telling me what my ethics should be and how I need to limit my life to conform to their idea of right. It makes me -- even if I agree with them! -- want to reject their idea because I want to reject control. That's human nature. We don't like others telling us who we should be.

Isn't it also human nature to conform? To take guidance from something greater. That something greater need not be controlling you to give you the best, as a mother chooses to breastfeed the baby? You might say that baby is programmed to seek breast. But still mother's choice of foods influences breastmilk taste and contents, setting up lifelong preferences. It seems to me that in nature, there is limited choice, foods are seasonal and there is not the massive array found at the supermarket. In nature, there be a tendency or programming to eat all that is available, which is sensible as don't know what future holds. But apply that to supermarket and modern life and obesity seems to be the outcome. Personally, I feel all that choice in the supermarket is not natural for animal human. Consider all the possible diets, the cultural preferences, the local foods, etc. There is way too much choice and it is overwhelming. We need to cut down that choice based on something, whether religious or localized (porridge here in Scotland!) or parental or health or (unfortunately) the power of advertising, etc.

Joyce said: Choice is choice for ourselves, but when we choose for others, it's control.

Choice surely isn't just for ourselves. A wise person surely realizes personal choice impacts others (we are all connected) and would aim for a choice which is good for all? When they are old enough, children are welcomed to input on the choices being made, then parent can negotiate/adjust the choices. Parents take the time to hang out with kids on floor and discover their wants. This is surely a better model to grow up, where relationships are based on negotiation/communication/win-win. This isn't control. If you have a child that wants to play music loud in the morning and parents and a neighbourhood that want to sleep at that time in the morning, surely you need to negotiate with that child to go play somewhere where others aren't bothered by noise at that time (or put on headphones)? You seem to suggest that by imposing limited choice (no noise here at 3am) over child, it is control. Surely it is just common sense, to do something that works for all? This approach still allows room for working with nature, as you put it, 'It's human nature to want to explore to find what we like and dislike.' So, for wise person, personal choice needs to consider those around.

Further, regarding movie choices, my kids (boys 10 and 7) are interested in 15 and 18 movies (as they are graded in UK), but I cannot allow that. This is controlling, but I know that violent movies and games are unnatural for younglings. It is human nature not to kill (see book 'On Killing' by Grossman), so the army trains people to kill with violent video games. Some of my kids friends have watched 15 and 18 movies. For me, it's unnatural to see decapitations, disembowellings, sex with donkeys, and so on. When they're older, they are welcome to explore that, to see what humans have done, and make their minds up.

Joyce said What if your husband let you explore movies and books but worried about the choices you were making?

I think relationship with spouse is different from children. They are younglings that need guidance from the more experienced. For me, it's more about win-win. You offer ever-increasing reasonable choice and opportunity for negotiation and do what works better for all. For example, we're vegetarians, but I/we have allowed our children to eat fish/meat if they want when they are at parties or eating out without laying any trips on them.
My wife wants me to surprise her, I have been told I buy her good presents (am somewhat sensitive to her choice preferences). You might not get it right, but that is the time for discussion.

Joyce said: But kids who are allowed sweet cereals with no hint that their choices are wrong or that limits will be imposed, naturally drift to less and less sweet foods because their stomachs are bigger and they don't need the concentrated calories.

I got to eat wheat biscuits (Weetabix) with a really thick layer of sugar or Frosties when at home with my dad. He also let me take a suitcase of candies illegally to boarding school. I didn't drift to less sweet foods! I do eat healthily (maternal influence) but still have a mighty sweet tooth. Personally, whilst guiding my children to healthy choices, I'd emphasize exercise over diet, but both are important. I remember reading about Chippendales being able to eat whatever they want, as they worked it off! In modern world, we are not active enough to justify eating whatever we like!

Joyce said: For unschooling to flourish, it's about helping kids explore who they are, finding ways for them to explore that are safe, respectful and doable for a particular family.

Yes, I'm all for strewing. For practical reasons I cannot offer all choices to child. I offer what's best and am open to negotiation on many things. Summing up, I'm all for exploration, but I have made choices that do influence my family (I don't see how anyone cannot do this).

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-You might say that baby is programmed to seek breast. But still mother's choice of foods influences breastmilk taste and contents, setting up lifelong preferences.-=-

Human breastmilk is one of the sweetest things I've ever tasted. It tastes nothing at all like artificial baby formula.

You keep writing of "programming."
People aren't programmed from outside. They grow from a zygote with knowledge that our culture has denied and shamed and belittled.

Learning to see what is real and natural in a human is part of seeing how natural learning works.

Further, regarding movie choices, my kids (boys 10 and 7) are interested in 15 and 18 movies (as they are graded in UK), but I cannot allow that. ... sex with donkeys....

If you want to rephrase that to "If I let them choose, my kids would want to watch sex with donkeys," I'd love to add it to this page of similar extreme assertions:
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet

-=-regarding movie choices, my kids (boys 10 and 7) are interested in 15 and 18 movies (as they are graded in UK), but I cannot allow that-=-

Anytime anyone writes "I cannot" or "I have to" or "I had no choice," it's indicative that they're living by rules and not by principles. They're not making decisions based on their own judgment and their own children, but on fears and notes printed on boxes.

http://sandradodd.com/haveto
http://sandradodd.com/choices

[Tammy]

Joyce Fetteroll said:

***

Maybe you're picturing replacing your healthy choices for them with "junky" kid choices. But in practice, a home with choice looks like Mom choices with other people adding their choices to the list.
OK .... This IS how I was seeing it ! I wasn't seeing it as an addition but more as a replacement of what I do now!

Excuse me while I muddle through the thoughts I was having...

I saw it more as : We go shopping and they happily go through the isles and just put only junk ( for the purpose of this post) in the cart and I left out everything else. I didn't buy what I usually bought , only what they wanted ( which in my thoought would only be "junk" ) .....Then we went home and I turned into a short order cook , cooking what everyone wanted at any given time ( or just never cooking again while they eat chips and twinkies forever) and if we happen not to have that in the house I needed to go right then and get it for them. And if they never wanted "healthy " food again , then so be it.

Now mind you I have read the links and many postings again and again from time to time ...and always I felt the same .I don't know why but this time I see it differently.

I can still cook as I always have just with them adding their choices to the cart. I don't have to stop cooking family meals. I can still cook all the meals as I do and offer it to them , just letting go of the expectation that they have to eat it .And giving them more choice in what I/we cook as a family. And if something they want isn't available I will try to get it for them when I can but it doesn't mean I have to have the whole food world on standby in my kitchen.


Sorry if I'm still muddled I'm still working through it in my head!

[Meredith]

In nature, there be a tendency or programming to eat all that is available, which is sensible as don't know what future holds. But apply that to supermarket and modern life and obesity seems to be the outcome.

And yet, it isn't the outcome with unschooling kids. That's important, especially when you consider that unschoolers are a pretty heterogenous group in terms of genetic background.

When they are old enough, children are welcomed to input on the choices being made,

How old is old enough?
Young children - under about 4, aren't interested in all the food choices in the world. They want to have some choices about when and how they eat of what's available - it isn't until 4ish that they want some input into what's available. That's an interesting little bit of development, from an unschooling standpoint. A child who isn't interested in all those other choices in the world could be said to be "not old enough" to make that choice. But by the same token, a 4yo is ready to have some input into that choice. In real life, four year olds want to experiment with choices, but not in a huge way - more like variations on a theme than all the choices in the world.

I know that violent movies and games are unnatural for younglings

Children play violent games all the time. I grew up with cops and robbers, WWII games, cowboys and indians, space battles, you name it. Kids experiment with ideas of ethics, life and death, all the big ideas of humanity in their play.

Kids also know what they don't want to see. Its more helpful to make sure your kids feel comfortable saying "No, turn that off" when they don't want to see something! Limiting things you don't want them to see is a good setup for kids sneaking peaks at things they really don't want to see just to prove they can.

In modern world, we are not active enough to justify eating whatever we like!

My kids eat whatever they like with no healthy issues. They eat exactly as much as they want and stop when they've had enough. They get exactly as much exercise as they want and stop when they choose.

Kids in school (and everything "known" about food and nutrition is based on the assumption of kids in school) have very little choice. They aren't allowed to move around for most of the day, their eating is restricted to a very narrow arbitrary window and their selection is doubly limited by what's given them (by parents or school) and peer pressure. That's not a set-up for any kind of ability to make healthy choices - and a large part of why people in their late teens and early twenties often have pretty erratic diets. They're only just getting to explore.

For practical reasons I cannot offer all choices to child

This is so vague and theoretical its hard to know what's meant. There are real limits in life - finances, allergies, hours in the day... life is full of limits. I don't need to add a single limit to my kids lives! I have the marvelous priviledge of helping them navigate their limited world with an eye toward problem solving and exploration - I get to help them climb the obstacles in their world! I get to help them have bigger, more fabulous lives!

[Meredith]

If you want to rephrase that to "If I let them choose, my kids would want to watch sex with donkeys," I'd love to add it to this page of similar extreme assertions:

Snort! At one point we had a neighbor using our computer until Ray asked that he be banned from it. In the history was exaclty that sort of thing. I'm pretty darned confident that if I let Ray look at anything he wanted, that would be at the bottom of the list.