how to approach "mean" language and swearing?

[Alison MacNamara]

My boys (son, 8 today, and step-son, 8 in February) and I have been homeschooling since September, and I have been interested in/working towards radical unschooling for a little over a year, now. I suppose I'd define our family as eclectic or relaxed homeschoolers at this point. We do use curriculum style resources for math (from my sister, an elementary school teacher here in Surrey, BC) and history (The Story of the World), but I am working towards being more relaxed and easy-going about  when they do it and how much they do.

My question relates to issues of power/control and language. My boys love video games, and would probably play them all day every day if I let them (I understand this is problematic from a radical unschooling point of view, but I'm just not there, yet. They still play every day for several hours, often all day long on Saturdays and Sundays.)

I've read the responses so far to

parents whose young kids like computer war games, what can you tell...

and

Not Letting Children View Inappropriate parts in Movies

which I have found very helpful, in general. However, I have a specific question about my son.

My son has a tendency to get very excited during play (various Pokemon and Super Mario Bros. games, mostly, also Zelda), and will often 'talk' to the characters on the screen. He'll yell, "die, die!!" at them, or
call them "stupid" or "idiot". I ask him not to, and I tell him it's not kind. Sometimes I'll explain that I wouldn't want him saying that to another kid, or I'll say that I think it would be upsetting to him if another kid called him "stupid" or "idiot."

Also, he sometimes swears (says "fuck" which his step-dad says a lot, and which my sister/roommate and I occasionally say), which I try to explain as something other adults don't like hearing from children, and that appropriate language changes with context/place. So, I explain it's okay for OUR kids to swear in OUR home, but most kids aren't allowed to swear at all. Thus, it'd be better if he didn't swear in public, or at other people's houses.

We also try, in general, to remind one another of when we swear. So, if an adult slips, a kid should definitely correct us, say, "mom, please don't swear" or "dad, you said the 'bad F-word' again!" (the term "the bad f-word" is a family joke from my mom, my sister and I). And if a child swears, we aim for a gentle reminder.

Sometimes my son insists he didn't swear (maybe he said it without realizing?), and gets quite upset. Other times, he shrugs it off, i.e. says "yeah, mom, you're right, we should try not to swear"

Am I worrying too much? Should I just let him be, let him yell/say whatever he likes?

[Alex Polikowsky]

So he is not swearing in public ??
You tell him he can use swearing at home but when he does you get on him about it?
You fear he will call ral people stupic because he calls pixels stupid?
Is he calling other kid stupid or telling them to die?
It seems there is a lot of fear in your part about losing control over your child.
You are afraid he won;t learn math or history and you are afrais he will not behave apropiratly'
in public because he swears at video games.

About the computer playing and what you said:
"My boys love video games, and would probably play them all day every day if I let them"
Here are some good reads for you:

http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
and video games:
http://sandradodd.com/videogames/

and here about swearing or bad words:
http://sandradodd.com/language/bad

[Teresa]

From Sandra's page, quoted above:

"The trick then is the awareness of appropriate times and places to use those words, and when it's not courteous... It has to do with courtesy, discretion, choices, mindfulness--all the good stuff."

That's about how we go about dealing with it. I do say curse words, mostly just damn and shit. And my son didn't really even notice or care until my six-year-old niece came to stay with us and shared that godammit was a bad word. So, then we had the talk. I told them that some people get upset when they hear those words, especially when coming from children, so we don't usually say them around other people. They made a big joke about being able to say godammit in the car, but not once the stepped outside of the car, in my house, but not my sister's house. And then, as you might guess, it lost its sparkle, and they don't really care anymore.

With regards to the yelling at the computer, I can tell you that my son does that, too. But he knows that calling people stupid in real life is unkind (he saves it as his last insult, it's that strong!). He also only wishes people dead when he's really, really mad at them, so I know he doesn't take that lightly, either.

[Sandra Dodd]

It just so happens I was asked this question a few hours ago:

________________________

I was thinking about bringing up a point for discussion on a public email list
(like the ... list), but I thought I'd bounce the idea off a trusted source first. My point is Foul Language.

I was at [an event] this weekend. I've attended few events lately, and had
quite a good time at this one. My wife and children did not attend with me.
While I was there, I couldn't help but feel like I was surrounded by an awful
lot of foul language. The swearing seemed to come from all sources, including
knights and landed nobility. (It does seem to have been predominantly men and
not women.) It occurred to me more than once that I was glad that my children
(ages 4 and 2) were not in attendance to be exposed to that language.

Maybe I'm overreacting? Maybe these people would have guarded their tongues
more carefully if the children HAD been present? I've personally tried to swear

less around my children, and it is a hard habit to break.

Your thoughts and advice would be very welcome.

T........

PS: Thanks for sharing your India trip online! I'm hoping to go to India for
business next year some time and am very excited!

================================

I responded:
================================
-= I've attended few events lately, and had
quite a good time at this one. -=-

Gunwaldt said it was a really fun event for him.

-=-My wife and children did not attend with me.
While I was there, I couldn't help but feel like I was surrounded by an awful
lot of foul language.-=-

When our kids were little we didn't worry about foul language, and it ended up making the world bigger and more peaceful, which is the opposite of what most parents seem to think will happen if they avoid "bad words" entirely. I didn't find it was worth doing.

Some of the meanest people I've ever met would never say the word "poop," but they would manage to cut people to the bone with criticism and "suggestions" and eye rolls and little snickers at inappropriate times.

Some of the nicest people I've ever met might lean toward "How the hell are you?" but it wasn't mean.

It's one thing to say "oh, fuck." It's another to say "Fuck you." "We had such high hopes for you," said sadly, is worse in my world than "fuck you" is.

I gave a talk (by request) in August on bad language, and the notes are not "out there" (linked in public) but those at the workshop got the link.
http://sandradodd.com/badwords

In the part that starts "On Facebook a few weeks ago:
Wendy: Apparently, today is the day I say 'fuck' a lot."

Wendy is Countess Maud and Holly is... well you know Holly. So I'm the mom in the story.

Sandra/AElflaed

[Meredith]

Some of the meanest people I've ever met would never say the word "poop,"

Where I live, in TN, one of the cruellest things a person can say is "Bless your (his/her) heart"!

Time and place matter. Yelling insults at a computer screen in one's own home seems like its in the same category as mechanics and carpenters swearing while working or drivers yelling at other drivers from within the confines of the car. Its Not the same as cussing out another person, and it doesn't hlep your son to tell him yelling at an object or imaginary character is the same as yelling at a human being. If anything, it will help you to remind yourself of the difference!

if a child swears, we aim for a gentle reminder

A friend of mine with kids about Ray's age used "words" as the reminder - that word I mean. It has the advantage of being short, like "hamper" when a child drops a dirty towel on the floor. In that family, "words" has become a sort of faux swear word, a family in-joke.

I know other families that use faux curses from cartoons - "tartar sauce" and "barnacles" have been popular here. I tend to use silly faux curses like "ding-dang-dong" anyway, so "barnacles" fit right in to my repetoire.

I try to explain as something other adults don't like hearing from children

At the unschooling campout I attended recently, a mom and I had a conversation about the expression "mixed company". Across generations is still "mixed company" although mixed genders isn't any longer.

We talk a little about what's considered appropriate in different contexts, here, too. That campout was held over Halloween weekend, while the small towns in my area held trick-or-treating the Saturday before, and Mo had two separate costumes. We talked about which one would not be considered appropriate in the small towns (a home-made superhero costume consisting mainly of underwear) but would be just fine in a closed group of people we mostly know already.

[Alison MacNamara]

Alex Polikowsky said:
You tell him he can use swearing at home but when he does you get on him about it?

Well, yes... and no, it depends on the word. At daycare, the expectation is that the boys aren't to call one another or the younger kids 'stupid' because their childcare provider says it's a swear.
At home, I'd prefer we didn't call one another 'stupid' because it's not kind, and because I'd rather we distinguish between 'bad people' and 'bad behaviour'.
If they say 'damn' or 'shit' at home, I don't say anything. If I say 'fuck' at home, I ask them to point it out to me. That is, if I haven't already said "oops, I shouldn't have said that!" If my husband says 'fuck' at home, I point it out to him, or the kids do.
If they say 'damn' or 'shit' in public, I remind them that we shouldn't say those swears/words in public.

Is he calling other kid stupid or telling them to die?

Yes. I don't like it, and I want him to know that I don't think it's nice. Perhaps I can let go of that, however.

It seems there is a lot of fear in your part about losing control over your child.
You are afraid he won;t learn math or history and you are afrais he will not behave apropiratly' in public because he swears at video games.

Sure, maybe I do have fear about losing control. But isn't that because society puts enormous pressure on us to be in control, of ourselves, our lives, our circumstances, our children? It isn't easy to let go of all of that, all in one fell swoop. I'm taking it step by step, and just trying to be straight about where we're at as a family, and where I'm at as a parent :)

[Alison MacNamara]

Meredith said:

Time and place matter. Yelling insults at a computer screen in one's own home seems like its in the same category as mechanics and carpenters swearing while working or drivers yelling at other drivers from within the confines of the car. Its Not the same as cussing out another person, and it doesn't hlep your son to tell him yelling at an object or imaginary character is the same as yelling at a human being. If anything, it will help you to remind yourself of the difference!

Ok, yeah, I can see that. Pixels don't equal people. Got it :)


Thanks, everyone, for the feedback, it is appreciated. Also, thanks for the link, Sandra, it does help to put things into context for myself, especially the George Carlin clip :))

I guess my main concern is about my son unconsciously saying 'fuck' somewhere where some adult might freak out in reaction... so my solution so far has been to have ALL family members work on not saying 'fuck' (it's sometimes like punctuation for my husband), as well as to talk a lot about context, so they'll be equipped to avoid the adult freaking out at them for swearing. Maybe I'll switch my focus to context and awareness - i.e. drop the "we shouldn't swear" in favour of recognizing that we swore...

[Joyce Fetteroll]

*** Maybe I'll switch my focus to context and awareness - i.e. drop the "we shouldn't swear" in favour of recognizing that we swore... ***

I would let it go until it happens. Maybe it will help if you assume it will eventually happen. So think about how you'll react without feeling like the gasp of another parent immediately labels you with "Bad Mommy" that may make you want to squash your son for doing that to you. (Not saying you would but it's a fairly typical knee jerk reaction when caught by surprise.)

Mentally run through some scenarios. Assume he isn't doing it to hurt someone. Assume his slip means he needs some help. That's when a simple code word (like "words") can be helpful to draw the child's attention to help them grow awareness. He won't be perfect. One reminder is unlikely to do it. Look at his behavior as communication. He's behavior will let you know for how long he needs help being aware.

[JennyStar]

Well, yes... and no, it depends on the word. At daycare, the expectation is that the boys aren't to call one another or the younger kids 'stupid' because their childcare provider says it's a swear.
At home, I'd prefer we didn't call one another 'stupid' because it's not kind, and because I'd rather we distinguish between 'bad people' and 'bad behaviour'.

Knowing other people's rules are good. Although the word 'stupid' isn't a swear word, and like you believe, it's simply not a kind thing to say to someone. Although, I find that kids get frustrated and tell other kids all kinds of unkind things. Saying that they are stupid is far less offensive in my thinking than saying "I hate you and never want to play with you again". Either way, it's the behavior of being unkind and frustrated towards another human being that's at the heart of the issue, not the words being used.

If they say 'damn' or 'shit' at home, I don't say anything. If I say 'fuck' at home, I ask them to point it out to me. That is, if I haven't already said "oops, I shouldn't have said that!" If my husband says 'fuck' at home, I point it out to him, or the kids do.

If the words don't bother your family members, why make a big deal out of it? You can still help each other not say things that are potentially offensive to others while out and about. I let go of trying to control other people's language a long time ago.

Sure, maybe I do have fear about losing control. But isn't that because society puts enormous pressure on us to be in control, of ourselves, our lives, our circumstances, our children? It isn't easy to let go of all of that, all in one fell swoop. I'm taking it step by step, and just trying to be straight about where we're at as a family, and where I'm at as a parent :)

If all the members of your family are okay with how you deal with cussing, then it's not really an issue. If you have various family members that enjoy cussing, then I'd let go of trying to get them to stop within their own home. If guests come over that are sensitive to that, a polite reminder is nice.

Same with nasty jokes and and all other things that are potentially sensitive. I want my kids to feel like they can be themselves in their own homes and if their nature is to cuss, then so be it. Help them navigate various others in their lives in that regard.