how to deal with kids wanting to quit paid-for lessons or activities?

[Alison MacNamara]

I'm brand new to the idea of unschooling/non-coercive parenting. I'm hoping for some advice or insight around kids wanting to quit extra-curricular activities, like sports teams.

In the past, I've forced my son to continue playing soccer until the end of the season, even when he resisted at every practice and every game. At the time, he was 5, in kindergarten. He played the regular season (September to early March), and then wanted to register for the 8 week spring season. Despite it being his decision to register, he again wanted to quit.

Since then, I've avoided registering him for soccer, even though he says he'd like to try playing again. I've redirected him to other activities, like swimming lessons or softball, which he regularly enjoys. This has been working so far.

Now, I also have my stepson living with us, and I've registered both boys in floor hockey. My stepson loves hockey, especially watching it with his dad. The other day, he said he didn't want to go. We went, because my son wanted to go, and my stepson decided to play, and had a great time.

My concern here is mainly about myself, and how I am reacting to him saying he wants to quit.

My main motivation, I think, is not so much about being a quitter, as it was in the past with my son and soccer. I'm learning to let go of that, through retraining my thinking about children's rights. After all, I've quit plenty of things as an adult. Several times in my college career, I have become overwhelmed by my workload, and I have dropped a course. So, if it's okay for me to do this, theoretically, it's okay for kids, too.

Really, what bothers me is the money lost. With my own coursework, I have also been really bothered by the wasted money, but I have been able to accept the financial loss through a cost/benefit analysis of my overwhelm leading to less frugal standards around the home - buying junk foods and convenience foods, instead of cooking from scratch, for one example.

But my boys don't really understand money the way I do, as an adult. They don't get that we barely have enough money to buy food and gas and to keep paying our rent and utilities. They think our bank accounts are endless. If I tell them we can't afford to buy something right now or to go out for dinner tonight, they suggest we just put it on my credit card.

I know that they will come to understand money as their cognitive abilities develop, but for now, I am at a loss as to how to approach this without feeling resentful and broke.

Does anyone have a suggestion for me?

[Sandra Dodd]

Whether they understand money or not, the money's still gone.

Little kids do NOT understand money, which is why they're not legally able to enter into contracts. Too many parents "make contracts" with their children (to get a pet if..., or in family meetings) and the children will say yes without the slightest ability to comprehend the "promise" they're making.

It might help to think of it as a dozen donuts, or as poison. If you bought a dozen donuts and ate two and didn't want any more, would it be less expensive if you ate all dozen? Would it be "a waste of money" to throw them away instead of eat them? What if you ate four more, to not waste money, and then you threw up?

What if you bought a bottle of pills and your child was allergic to them, but they had been expensive? They're making him sicker and sicker, but it would be a waste of money not to finish them off?

[Meredith]

We have pretty slim finances and look for ways for the kids to do or try things that aren't such a financial impact, either where we don't have to pay for a whole season or course at once or we look for places we don't have to pay, or pay very much. Sometimes places like the Y or Boys and Girls clubs have sports programs for low income families. Outside of sports, we've had luck talking to individual teachers and working out some kind of deal, one on one. Right now, for instance, Ray's taking bass lessons for trade, rather than cash, blacksmithing through a county extension program ($50 for the Year!) and learning from an area woodworker through a work trade agreement. Those are the sorts of things that are easier to find with a little practice - at first it can seem like a ton of legwork, but it does get easier as you get "in the loop" with the right kind of people.

Kids have a hard time understanding finances because they hear "we don't have..." and then see mom and dad turn around and spend money. It has helped with my kids to be as transparant as possible where finances are concerned, to the point they are interested and can understand. I'll say "I have x dollars and need this much for groceries and this much gas for the car, that leaves y amount for spending money." Or I'll explain how much of my paycheck goes to bills and what's left over. From time to time I've explained foodstamps - how we have money, of a sort, but Only for food, not toys.

If your kids have seen patterns of spending with checks and credit cards despite you saying "we don't have money" then they're baffled. They're not trying to drive you crazy ;) they're trying to figure out this whole money thing. Its weird and complicated and mom doesn't seem to be telling the whole story. Some parents deal with the complication by paying cash as much as possible - who's that guy who advises people to use cash and divvy it up in envelopes for bills and such? That sort of system can help kids make sense of where all the money goes. I know one mom who did something similar with play money when her kids were younger, so they could see and handle the "finances" without having to actually cash every single paycheck.

But finding alternative solutions, ways to say "yes" is just as important as explaining where all the money goes. For purchases, wish lists or vision boards might help, a way to say "yes" even if its not always an imediate yes. Some kids do better with allowances with that sort of thing, too, rather than having to ask for cash.

[Alison MacNamara]

Thank you both for your replies

However, it seems my question wasn't totally clear, because both responses focused on money.

My concern is more about how do I respond when they want to quit?

I mean, just saying okay will leave me feeling angry and resentful. However, the flip side, the way I've handled it in the past, with ultimatums, bribes and punishment, leaves the kids feeling angry and resentful.

I guess I'm looking for suggestions on how to get from a traditional response to this mysterious way of being called radical unschooling. I'm pretty sure the "correct" response is to just say okay and let them quit, but how do I go from resentment to, "it's really okay"?

[Amanda]

who's that guy who advises people to use cash and divvy it up in envelopes for bills and such?

*******
Dave Ramsey

[Sara]

When my kids want to take a class, I decide whether or not to pay for a session. After I've made the decision to pay, I don't make my kids responsible for "getting my money's worth." Whether or not they attend is up to them. It is frustrating at times, but I know that they are acting on their feelings, which is what I want them to do.

In your situation, I would express myself honestly. Tell your son how you feel about paying for lessons he isn't taking and how that will influence your future spending decisions, but also that you don't want to pressure him into taking lessons he doesn't want to attend. Tell him that you understand his feelings, but you also want him to understand yours.

[Meredith]

However, it seems my question wasn't totally clear, because both responses focused on money.

My concern is more about how do I respond when they want to quit?

The two are tied together in an important way. You're currently setting up a situation where either you're going to be resentful or your kids are. A big part of the practical life shift involved in radical unschooling is changing the way you go Into situations, so you can set yourself and your kids up to feel good.

If you know, up front, that you're going to lose it if your kids don't want to take a whooooole course you've paid for, that's something to have on the table. Is it worth that same amount of money for the kids to try it and change their minds? That's a logistical question, in some ways. Can you afford to spend this money for a two week trial?

Once the money is spent, its gone. That limits your problem solving. So do the problem solving before you spend the money. That way you have more options. You Know your kids are inclined to try things for short times - that's Good to know! You can choose to keep ignoring that fact or you can include it in your plans. Planning for them to change their minds, you will sometimes get the excitement of a kid who stays the whole season. You get to be happy about that rather than wringing your hands every time one doesn't.

I'm pretty sure the "correct" response is to just say okay and let them quit, but how do I go from resentment to, "it's really okay"?

You get there before you ever pay a dime. Do you see what I'm saying? The issue isn't about what to do when they quit, its about how to change your perspective about the quitting Before its an issue.

In the present, if you're looking at an issue right now, the hockey thing, maybe, reread Sandra's reply and your own words. The money is gone. Do a cost benefit analysis of the amount of emotional glop you'll have to shove the kids through to get them to keep doing something they don't want to do - is it worth the stress? Worth dumping your own baggage on them? Do you really Want them to own your issues? To see money before people? I'm thinking not. If the sports were actively hurting them, like Sandra's example of poison, would you still make them go? Making them go hurts them. Its like poisoning their minds and hearts, a little at a time, undermining their sense of self, their sense of curiosity, their will to explore.

You don't have to get all the way to "its okay" in your own mind this time, just say the words and back off, take some deep breaths, enjoy the time they're home with you. Now's the time to start thinking about next time, so you're not stuck in the same situation all over again. So that when they say "that's enough, mom" you actually get to be okay with that.

[Alison MacNamara]

Meredith said:

A big part of the practical life shift involved in radical unschooling is changing the way you go Into situations, so you can set yourself and your kids up to feel good... So do the problem solving before you spend the money... Planning for them to change their minds

I'm pretty sure the "correct" response is to just say okay and let them quit, but how do I go from resentment to, "it's really okay"?
You get there before you ever pay a dime... The issue isn't about what to do when they quit, its about how to change your perspective about the quitting Before its an issue.

Yay! I get it!

And I think I've been slowly getting it for awhile. The soccer thing was something my mom chose and paid for, and I was more concerned with "wasting" the gift, and of how I looked as a parent to the other parents. Then we chose swimming lessons, much shorter sessions. Then my son chose softball, much more suited to his personal activity level (less running). When we chose floor hockey this year, I partially chose it because it only cost $50 for both kids. Cheap.

But still, the "I don't want to" triggered my own baggage from my own childhood, and I wanted to find a way to short-circuit the stress of the soccer situation 2 years ago. This is a tricky path we've chosen to walk as a family, mostly because we have no models to follow. I think I've now found a way to approach this for myself. Thank you ALL.

[Cindy]

In economic terms, the costs already incurred are known as "sunk costs". It can help to think of these fees as paying for the opportunity to do the activity. If you can afford to pay for the class, the economic effect is still the same, whether or not you follow it through. You can help mitigate these expenses in advance by being realistic about the child's commitment level, or inquiring about trial classes. The actual way this plays out varies with each family, but the important concept is not allowing money already spent on something to affect future decisions with regard to the outcome. Here is some more info about the idea of sunk costs:
"Economists argue that sunk costs are not taken into account when making rational decisions. In the case of the movie ticket, the ticket buyer can choose between the following two end results:
1. Having paid the price of the ticket and having suffered watching a movie that he does not want to see, or;
2. Having paid the price of the ticket and having used the time to do something more fun.

In either case, the ticket-buyer has "paid the price of the ticket" so that part of the decision no longer affects the future. If the ticket-buyer regrets buying the ticket, the current decision should be based on whether he wants to see the movie at all, regardless of the price, just as if he were to go to a free movie. The economist will suggest that since the second option involves suffering in only one way (spent money), while the first involves suffering in two (spent money plus wasted time), option two is obviously preferable."

wikipedia entry: sunk costs


Sandra Dodd said:

Whether they understand money or not, the money's still gone.

Little kids do NOT understand money, which is why they're not legally able to enter into contracts. Too many parents "make contracts" with their children (to get a pet if..., or in family meetings) and the children will say yes without the slightest ability to comprehend the "promise" they're making.

It might help to think of it as a dozen donuts, or as poison. If you bought a dozen donuts and ate two and didn't want any more, would it be less expensive if you ate all dozen? Would it be "a waste of money" to throw them away instead of eat them? What if you ate four more, to not waste money, and then you threw up?

What if you bought a bottle of pills and your child was allergic to them, but they had been expensive? They're making him sicker and sicker, but it would be a waste of money not to finish them off?

[Charissa Vaunderbroad]

I had similar issues when I used to pick out classes with Phoenix, now as a policy we only do these things on a day to day basis. Swimming at the public pool or roller skating are usually inexpensive and have very little commitment.
I will admit that we have crashed some soccer practices (we just take our own ball and kick it around and sooner or later they invite us to play.)
He got kicked out of folk dancing classes for making up his own dances so now I make sure to explain my stance about compulsory education with any potential teachers (and they usually tell me the class isn't for us.) He attends a lot of free classes around town, I just take him there and explain that he is curious about it and ask if we can hang out. I have never been turned down and he usually participates with the other kids and then leaves when he wants and everyone is happy.
~Charissa Vaunderbroad~