I am slowly losing my Patience

[Diana]

I should say We are losing our patience. Actually my husband lost his earlier this year. I have been the parent with the patience. For over 8 years I have been proud of the fact that almost nothing would frustrate me. I always felt a lot of joy being with my kids. It is devastating to feel that slipping away.

The fun we used to have is really becoming overshadowed with this strong desire to break and waste and harm things all the time. We used to bounce right back after a little diversion into destruction but now it happens so many times a day that there almost isn’t time to bounce back and have fun again. We have done everything we know how to do, and nothing has helped us more than just a little bit here and there.

We are hoping someone here has 3 or more high energy kids and has found a way to deal with unkindness and destruction. My two youngest have always been attachment parented. Carried, deeply connected and co-everything.

After learning about radical unschooling last year, we worked extremely hard, especially this last summer and fall to focus on deep, no judgments, down on the floor connection with lots of options and solutions. We are on a first name basis with our local dollar and thrift stores. Saturday mornings were always garage sales up until just a couple months ago. Lots of options here.

We basically ignored our housework and much of our social life and played with the kids for months. Meeting needs as they came up helped stop the destruction. But I think it was because we were right there to head it off and find a fast solution, not because they learned peacefulness or empathy or wanted to keep the house safe because we explained why.

The occasional unkind behavior to us, siblings and our pets continued. And there are some things that even though we firmly say no like climbing the pantry shelves they do it anyway several times a day. The shelves and contents have fallen and they experienced the real life consequence we warned them about. They do it anyway.

It seems like the more energy we put into finding options the more they think it’s funny to do things that are unkind or destructive. I just walked the house and counted 5 holes in the sheetrock. Our kids seem to find great joy in destroying or disrupting. The more you explain why it’s harmful to another or dangerous to oneself the more they want to do it. If they would only go outside with the items we have purchased that can be destroyed.

I don’t want to put all of our furniture in storage to keep them from stabbing it with everything hard or sharp they can get their hands on. We have conservatively 15 solutions that they are welcome to explore to meet whatever need they have for that. Including a half piece of sheetrock. They know this and do not want it, I think because it does not bring the gasp and look of horror and eventual heartbreak when we find they have destroyed yet another valuable household item.

I don’t want to get rid of the dog that I had before I had any kids. But he is old and cannot take the abuse. I cannot be everywhere at once and therefore he gets kicked and poked almost every day. He got it in the eye today and was down whimpering and pawing it. I cried. It’s so frustrating to live like this.

I need to be open here and admit that I cry several times a week lately when I come back to a room after being absent for 5 minutes to find unbelievable messes or damage. I don't think the human nervous system was designed to handle this much constant chaos. How many times do you offer options or ask them to Stop before you take some serious action? If you did take serious action, what would that action be? The soft fluffy sit down and talk about it or put it away unschooling stuff I read about does not work for us. I am out of ideas.

Sincerely,

Diana

PS. I really want to explain everything we as parents have done, to paint a better picture of our lives so to speak, but that would take too long and my frame of mind is a little off right now. I can only say that we have done a lot of work on identifying underlying needs and deepening our connections because everything we read and everyone we have talked to points to that first. This has been going on intensely for at least a year so we have been through a lot of trial and error.
Last but certainly not least I wanted to add my sincere apology for bringing a negative post to start the new year. My hope is that the ideas we get here will make 2009 a turning point in my young families lives and maybe many others as well. Thank you everyone that participates for this place to learn better parenting ideas.

[Alex Polikowsky]

If what I write dos not help you please don;t read.
I really do not have time to write 2 paragraphs when a sentence is enough.
And I write with the best intentions and with a friendly "voice".

My kids need me and I need to be with them more than spend my time adorning what I write.
Yes/ I do tend to write to the point and not make it all rose colored.
That is my style. Take it or leave it.
I hope it helps others.
People that wirte like me have help me a lot.
If the mother was saying how nursing her child was draining her I thin she would have gotten different advice.
That was not what she wrote. Maybe she di not notice how negative her views of her small child are.
I hope she does.
GTG my son needs the computer and my laptop is broken.

[Meredith]

I'm happy to, and would like to invite others to do the same!

Some of Ray's unmet needs had to do with a predictable environment - something conventional parenting tends to call "a need for structure". Ray didn't need a structure so much as he needed to know that meals were at predictable intervals, that the same shelf would always be used for "snacks", that sort of thing.

He needed a lot of notice if something was going to change - people coming for dinner, maybe, or a trip to the park on a different day than the usual.

Regular food was a big deal - his self control would plummet if he didn't eat every two hours at least.

He needed lots and lots of attention and Talking. Good grief that was a tough one for me! Half an ear wasn't enough for Ray, he wanted my complete attention to what he was saying all the time.

He needed someone with him - right there at his side - to help him figure out social situations. That one took us a long time to really understand - here's a kid who's soooooo social, how can he not have any social skills? But he didn't. He couldn't read body language very well. He didn't understand how tone of voice could modify meaning. Basically he understood the verbal communication but not the non-verbal - someone had to Tell him what was going on, in words, or he was baffled.

He needed to hear that he was a good person who sometimes made mistakes. He needed me and George to believe that and tell him and even point out times when he was being kind and thoughtful for awhile so he could See that he was okay and knew what skills to practice.

None of those were things Ray could have articulated, except maybe "talk to me".

Mo has some totally different needs from Ray, so I'll list some of those.

She needs a certain amount of space - I mean physical separation from other people - when she's upset. She needs space and time to observe before she's able to talk to someone new, or someone she hasn't seen for awhile.

She needs... oh, how do I say this... too many words overwhelm her. She needs cogency in verbal communication. When she was younger I learned to speak in sound bites - now sentences are okay, but I have to be careful not to repeat or ramble.

She needs big chunks of time to focus on things - all day, and maybe all week if its something she's really excited about. Sharing the computer and playstation take a different kind of negotiation with Mo.

Both my kids need plenty of opportunities to run and use big muscles - Ray tends toward big arm movements (smashing, hitting, now juggling). Mo tends to more climbing and jumping, but also "grasping" - she'd rather use the muscles of her hands than her shoulders.

[Cindy Boyer]

Probably the most helpful post out of the 75. No one was psychoanalyzed, just the facts of what someone’s kids needs were and how they were met. This has given me a lot to think about. Thank you.

Just imagine 75 posts like this one from 25 different families perspectives. The amount of valuable information would be astronomical. Maybe someday.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-That is a bad justification

Let's explore that "idea" that her comment is a "bad justification". In my experience what Rya stated is a fact. It is not a justification for anything. So the comment and the exploration of the idea is just one persons opinion and it is wrong. and it was bad to even mention it, and therefore the examples that followed were meaningless.

-=-How did that sound? I was just exploring the idea, right?-=-

Is this an honest question? It sounds like someone who hasn't been around unschooling discussion much defending something that didn't need defending, and criticizing people who didn't need criticism. That's okay. It didn't hurt my feelings. If what you've written above helps people understand unschooling better than what I wrote, then good! People will sift through all the comments and use some things and reject some things and that's how it works.

-=-Am I to believe that when a child is demonstrating a behavior that is disruptive or dangerous to the family that this behavior is to be thought of positively?-=-

The moms you're defending (who don't need to be defended, it doesn't appear) seemed to be saying so. Others were questioning it.

Sandra

[Bea Mantovani]

I wanted to reply to Cindy but there is no "reply to this" link on her post. She wrote : "Just imagine 75 posts like this one from 25 different families perspectives. The amount of valuable information would be astronomical. Maybe someday."

It is already "out there". Here is a review of several unschooling/ radical unschooling egroups by an unschooling dad:
http://theparentingpit.com/reviews/unschooling-parenting-egroups/

His review will help you select which groups appeal to you most, and you'll find hundreds, no, thousands of posts like Meredith's (and even some by Meredith herself) on them.

[Sandra Dodd]

OMG! You totally quoted that out of context!

-=-This was something I posted on the HSC list in response to a discussion stemming from a question about how to motivate a child to do schoolwork:

1. Give your love generously and criticism sparingly. Be your children's partner. -=-

That was Pam Sorooshian advising parents about how to make their relationships with their children better.

Anyone who has come to any unschooling discussion could have gone to her mom (or some female relative, or some friend's mom) instead of here. Coming here, you're coming to other unschooling moms. They will freely and generously give you TONS of ideas about how to make your relationship with your child better. What they will not do is treat you as their child and unschool you.

[Sandra Dodd]

"Thread," I bet you meant (not threat)--it was in another post too. Computer problems this week, right?

After there are so many posts/replies (nine levels, I think?) response options stop showing up. But to this...
-=- Even if it is some food that is contributing to that behavior, it is NOT ok to do that. -=-

There isn't a food that causes people to throw rocks at TVs. There's something else going on. There are rocks inside the house, for one thing. I have rocks in my house, actually. I have a basket of rocks right in this room. I have a fountain with rocks in the kitchen. No one has ever thrown a rock inside my house, ever. And we don't even have a rule against it!

If one has diabetic relatives who were given free choices to eat whatever they wanted to as children, that might be a reason to limit food. I'm guessing all those diabetic relatives had their own foods limited and measured and timed.

It's best when discussions can be about ideas and not people (which answers some of the other questions in the post from which some of these questions came).

[Alex Polikowsky]

I said above:
and maybe start another threat about food so people can focus on it.
-=-----

YesThread ! Sorry My keyboard is really almost unusable and my laptop is outof order. But Mostly is just me not re-reading what I wrote This is my son;s computer and I do not want to keep him away from his games.

[Katherine]

Also, read some of the posts (do a search on RUN network) for the discussions where Laura B., the owner of RUN talks about the changes in her relationship with food due to unschooling and how the change in that relationship has impacted the relationship with her children. It's very inspiring stuff.
____

[JennyStar]

Sandra said "Most of us grew up without choices, and didn't have any chance or encouragement to listen to our own bodies. If children eat on schedule, foods chosen for them, and are made to clean their plates and not given more food if they're hungry, that DOES cause problems. Nobody is "simply" saying it causes problems."

Jennifer said "Of course! This is so far from what I'm saying that I have to wonder if you've read everything I have written or if you are just assuming I'm not getting it or something."

I think this has everything to do with it! I don't think it says anything about wether or not you are getting it or if anyone else is either. It's a statement of fact, one that should be considered when discussing food and unschooling.

Jennifer said "I understand where you are coming from in not wanting the discussion to solely focus on food as a way for Diana to deal with her children. However, in your fear that people will focus on food and will start limiting food and choices, you completely dismissed the idea of food being a contributing factor."

I don't think anyone said to ignore it completely. I think what happens a lot, at least I've seen it happen a lot, in behavioral discussions, someone will always bring up food sensitivities. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that what we eat affects us. However, like adults, kids who eat something that makes them feel out of control, will find ways to change that. If they don't recognize it, which happens sometimes, parents can help. Where it gets tricky, is that I've seen many parents make a lot of assumptions about what food it is that they "think" their child is reacting to and try to control and limit that food item.

I don't believe that to be helpful for a number of reasons.

Jennifer said "No one said Diana should do a strict elimination diet and that would solve her problems."

If someone is talking about limiting a food item that a child eats, how would they accomplish that without some form of elimination diet?

Jennifer said "I DO worry about food and feeding my kids nutritous foods. I don't want to limit their choices and yet I worry when I see my 5 year old go from hungry to not hungry when all he has had is a soda."

Perhaps that is all your child wanted at the time though. Both of my kids at one time or another have chosen to drink soda for breakfast and nothing else, then an hour or 2 later, go and eat other things.

Jennifer said "And I just cannot accept that a soda is food. It's not as nutritous as water and vegetables, you know? I mean, that's just an example and maybe not the best one. A growing body needs nutritious food and soda is not nutritious. It's just not. It's sugar and water and artificial colors and flavors and sometimes caffeine."

First not all soda is as you say it is. There are plenty of sodas that are carbonated juices. When we talk about nutrition, especially in the context of unschooling, how we "feel" about what we eat and put into our bodies matters. Making a child feel badly about wanting soda can be more damaging than an actual soda!

Jennifer said "I'm also not willing to agree that soda and veggies are the same thing!"

I doubt any kid would argue that!

Jennifer said "Instead, how can people practice unschooling if they have kids with food intolerances, diabetes, celiac, etc? I realize that the responses might be different based on what we are talking about, but I think this is important to discuss."

I don't think it's any different for any allergies or food intolerances or any other dietary limitations, with the exception of allergies that will land someone in a hospital.

I have a lot of allergies and food intolerances. I have one child who has an allergy to dairy and one who can't tolerate eggs. They have both been able to freely experience their own thresholds on these items. My youngest is 7, and we figured out the dairy allergy when she was about 3. At the age of 7, she, on her own accord, refuses most dairy products and seeks out alternatives. She asks what has dairy in it and what doesn't, we offer the information, and she can freely choose wether or not she will partake of the item. And, yes, sometimes it causes behavior that we don't particularly care for, but with the recognition that it is caused by discomfort, we find ways to help her through it.

[Katherine]

Distractions and mood lighteners have always worked much better. My husband is a marvel at this. One thing he does that seems to always work when my younger daughter, she's the one who goes there, is in the throes of woes. He pretends to walk into doors and hurt himself. It's very funny, and extremely hard for anyone, even a crying child bent on showing us all how upset she is, to remain crying.

Brian is great at this even though it doesn't "work" everytime to divert the upset. I think this is because upset is *about* something and diversion only works when you're really young enough to forget about it for a time and your ability to worry hasn't begun to form much, like in most infants.

It is a great first response to jolly up the glums that could lean toward the destructive (or at least the physical) when solutions to whatever frustration or boredom don't surface. Then if it's boredom, having something new to do for a time or seeing a parent delve into something they want to be part of is a great way to change gears and move away from possible destructiveness. As a mother of an only child who doesn't always have friends to play with, I have seen how the outcome looks if I step in and how it looks if no one does.

The above that I've written is great for parents who *do* have an established pattern of trusting their children.

Diverting boredom goes a long way around here. That's not true if there are misunderstandings in the way. Diverting boredom takes a little adjustment, and in order to do that it takes a certain amount of faith in child(ren) so that you're not starting out with some tiny doubt or feeling of dread that can interfere with trust and free open communication, and end up bungling things up more. Trusting kids takes understanding what's going on with them and, once you've lost that understanding, getting it back is crucial to moving on.

I have lost that understanding of Karl from time to time temporarily. I haven't been faced with a pattern of misunderstanding though (except between me and my parents but that's a different thing altogether). From a parent's perspective, gaining a way to understanding what's going on is first obviously.

I haven't read all in this long long thread but so far it seems that the parent who wrote in originally doesn't have the understanding she needs, and I can't know what that is sitting where I am and not being the parent of the children tearing up everything in the house. It's seems to me that some of what's being written is saying that there's something wrong with the children and the assumption is that the parents are probably reasonable, neither of which we can know over the internet. I really can't tell.

[JennyStar]

Cindy said "It sounds to me like she has a great deal of compassion."
and...
"She also posted that she had read all the books and did not want advice. I wonder why everyone feels compelled to pick apart her post and give it to her anyway? It’s clear to me anyway that she has been at this for some years and has a really good grasp on it. Diana said the exact same thing in her posts and received the same only much worse."

Compassion alone doesn't solve problems. A person wrote wanting answers and is receiving many. Having compassion for that person's unique set of problems, doesn't help that person find answers.

And, since I was one of the people that responded to the poster who didn't want advice, I'll tell you why I said anything at all. What that person was saying about her child, did not sound like a very proactive or unschooling approach to a child who, by her own account, has anger and unhappiness issues.

She doesn't have to take any of the ideas or consider any thing that anyone wrote in response to her post. Other people may have similar issues that DO want to know a better way. To leave a comment like the one she posted, unresponded, would be akin to agreeing with such ideas as leaving a child to cry for 2 hrs while the parent stands by "not absorbing" the negative energy, or agreeing that refusing to nurse a nursing 4yr old as behavioral control was something that unschoolers find common.

Those things aren't common unschooling practices, and SHOULD be examined.

Cindy said "As advocates for peaceful parenting, for trust, for autonomy, don’t we have an obligation to give a mother that states she has done the research, the benefit of the doubt and either support her or let her be?"

NO! Whatever research she's done, it didn't lead her to helping her child be happier and less angry. My sister does research on why spanking is good for kids, and she considers herself a good mom who loves her children. I've been reading and writing about unschooling for 9 yrs now, and I find new and profound information ALL the time. My research is never done, if I'm always seeking out an even better way to do things. I make mistakes all the time and learn better ways for next time. It is one of life's continuous realities.

Just for the record, I neither support the poster in question, nor do I feel that I'm doing anything that I need to let her be. I'm responding to her words and in some manner attempting to help people see things differently then the way they were presented.