If No Punishments, Then What?

[Paige]

I'm in a quandry about what to do when my daughters (13 and 11) don't do what I ask.

It seems to be esclating more all of a sudden...I will ask them to stop, or tell them to stop doing something, and they keep on. There are two times it's happened this week, and I'm at a loss about how to respond to them.

First, they will come up to the dog when he's sleeping or eating, or chewing on his toy and stick their faces right up in his face. He growls, I say, "Don't bother the dog. He doesn't want to be bothered." They either keep their face in his, or remove it for just a second then put it right back. He growls two or three times, then when he gets tired of it, he snaps at them. They act like he's the worst dog ever, yell at him and scare him, but if I tell them more forcefully to move their face, they get mad at me and won't speak and act like I'm the worst mother ever.

Second thing....we've told the younger one not to knock on the window when she's knocking on the door...to actually knock on the *door* because the window may break and she could get cut. Well, Wednesday she went out the back door, couldn't open it when she wanted back in, so she knocked on the window until it broke, and she cut her hand and we had to take her to the doctor. (It didn't need stitches, he just glued it, but it scares me to think of how bad it could have been. It missed the big vein on the back of her hand by about a quarter inch.) We've reminded her, and reminded her over and over again to not knock on the window.

If we're not punishing them, is the only thing to do to wait until something bad happens? With Anna cutting her hand, she says now she will never knock on windows again, but she has already been bitten on the face (he just snapped at her and got her upper lip, barely broke the skin) and they keep on sticking their faces in his. My DH said apparently they won't stop bothering the dog until they loose part of their noses...

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-First, they will come up to the dog when he's sleeping or eating, or chewing on his toy and stick their faces right up in his face. He growls, I say, "Don't bother the dog. He doesn't want to be bothered."-=-

What would you do if a guest in your home did that to your dog?
If you've ever once said not to do it, then why not just pull the child physically back and turn her to face you and say "I said stop."?

At least you could defend the dog. It's your dog.

-=-We've reminded her, and reminded her over and over again to not knock on the window.
-=-

Instead of reminding her over and over, did you ever speak sharply to her and say STOP IT? Sweet-talking poodle-voice can be infuriating, and 100 words (which they've heard before) that didn't work the last time aren't going to work the next time.

-=-Well, Wednesday she went out the back door, couldn't open it when she wanted back in, so she knocked on the window until it broke-=-

What's wrong with the door? Can you get a cordless doorbell so she can get people's attention that way? Does she not have a key? If she can get locked out of her own house, is that part of the problem?

Are they lacking things to do? I don't see how getting in the dog's face could be worth doing. Are their entertainment options limited?
http://sandradodd.com/strewing

[Paige]

"If you've ever once said not to do it, then why not just pull the child physically back and turn her to face you and say "I said stop."?"

They get mad at me if I physically make them move...stomp off yelling, then refuse to speak to me.

"Instead of reminding her over and over, did you ever speak sharply to her and say STOP IT?"

Yes. Spoke nicely, spoke sharply, held her hands while explaining what would happen if the window broke...

"What's wrong with the door?"

MY DH fixed it, and being left-handed, fixed it in such a way that it's almost impossible for a right-handed person to open it. Not to mention that she had an armload of stuffed animals. But, it's only about 100 feet to go around to the front door, which is easy to open. She wasn't exactly locked out.

"Are they lacking things to do? I don't see how getting in the dog's face could be worth doing. Are their entertainment options limited?"

They're always busy...they just love the dog. I suspect something not knowing how to express it to him in right ways. They have lots of entertainment options...somehow annoying the dog is just appealing at times.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-They get mad at me if I physically make them move...stomp off yelling, then refuse to speak to me.-=-

If that's the only option you seem to have other than them being bitten by a dog, breaking a window, or just continuing to ignore you, it doesn't seem so bad. While they're mad maybe they'll think about why you physically removed them from a dangerous situation.

[Katherine]

Uhm... I would remove the dog for one thing. When Karl was 3 and pulling the dog's tail and couldn't understand why it was such a bad idea, the dog began to live outside. Karl's 5 and he understands now.

If Karl began repeatedly putting his face at a growling dog despite warnings not to, I would remove the dog to another home and tell Karl that though I understand he thinks the interaction is vastly interesting and amusing the dog hates it and rather than have the dog be so uncomfortable in his/her own home I found a place where s/he isn't being treated that way. I have a sister I could temporarily farm the dog out to until the important point of safety made it through, instead of my messages looking like "no to the kid's fun." Some things need time. A dog is not a toy but a living being. I really don't even refer to the cats and dogs we have as pets. While the dog is out of reach, if Karl wanted to talk about it we could then talk about the above... all people and animals having rights to expect to live sanely instead of being driven nutty by others around them.

I would quietly (not with any fanfare at all) accommodate the teens a little more where appropriate and perhaps increase their chances of being more empathetic and the door seems like one of those kinds of things. If a left handed person is the only one who can comfortably open the door and it's a hassle during impatient moments, I would find some way to accommodate the teens (the doorbell sounds ideal) so that they can use their own back door safely.

Just tonight we were over at some people's house. They're rather racist and Karl, being 5, doesn't understand the drastically stupid error of saying "I don't trust those black people" as we pass African Americans in the Waffle House where we ate on the way home from visiting. I don't want Karl to continue making discriminatory remarks. I know Karl doesn't yet understand why we feel differently from the people we visited earlier today and why it's a legal or moral distinction of important note to us. Brian and I certainly began talking about it. I wouldn't expect a 5 year old or teen to understand immediately the reason why.

One of the other things I've begun to incorporate into my comments with Karl is the distinction between a "no" for safety reasons versus a "no" for practical or other considerations. It has come in handy several times. He is listening more when I say ... "hey, I understand how you feel but this is for safety reasons" and I definitely expect him to respond appropriately so that he doesn't get hurt if it can be avoided.

[Candy Cook]

I have an 11 year old dog and two sons who are 5 & 6. The dog, who I admit is incredibly good natured, has only snapped at my oldest son one time - when he was about three. That's all it took for me to do two things.

Thing number one: Teach my dog that he is to never, ever show aggression toward the children. I don't care what they are doing. It's not acceptable for him to show aggression toward them. Instead of nagging your kids to death to not play with him, teach him that those children are to be protected, defended, loved. Feed your dog in a private area. Doesn't he deserve a peaceful meal in private? It doesn't usually take a dog very long to eat his meal. You could preoccupy the children while he eats.

Thing number two: Teach my children to be with a dog. They obviously wish to interact with the dog, somehow. Maybe you could join them when they express a wish to do this. Then, you could be right there, to *catch* them before they do something you know he won't like. Sit down, all together, with pooch and some grooming brushes and give the ole boy a massage. You could also buy treats, and show them how to teach a dog to do tricks. My dog is 11, I still go out with treats and teach him how to do new tricks or improve old ones. My sons love to do this, too. It builds a positive relationship between the child and the dog. Buy a DVD or check a video or book out about training dogs for behavior or tricks. Watch it with them and then try some of the techniques.

Take kids and dog on walks together. Point out when he's doing things that are the dog way of life. Like sniffing around, how dogs can amazingly lift information about other animals by sniffing their pee or #2s. When his ears perk up, stop and listen to see if you can tell what he's hearing.

Try to get him to sniff a spoonful of peanut butter and find the hidden jar. We like to play this game.

Let them pick out the treats at the grocery, or a small toy for him.

Get their opinion on making a small, private area for the dog. What would he like to sleep on? What kinds of stuff would he like near his bed? Then explain that it's the dogs private area, like his bedroom and when he's there, he wants privacy and relaxation. Read books to the dog.. my son loves to read books to our dogs. Our oldest dog just sits there and listens, but the puppy (my son is convinced) "points" to things in the books and asks him questions LOL.. Use good manners with your dog. Tell him, "Excuse me," instead of move, and "Thank you," and "Please," treat him like part of the family.. a living human part of the family and not some kind of outsider that doesn't deserve to be treated with respect. He's not there to follow orders, but to be a companion - an equal, a friend. Praise him when he spends any length of time with your children and behaves in a gentle way. Praise the children when they do something kind for him or are gentle and caring with him. Does your dog have a birthday? If not, make one and throw him a birthday party, everyone else in the house has a birthday. He gets steak or fish - my dog loves trout more.

Maybe sign up for an obedience class and let the girls be the handler.

I think the kids just haven't built a real relationship with the dog.. other than who has the power, who's in control, who can do what they want and dog can't do anything about it. Kind of bullyish. It doesn't sound like they think of him as a family member or a friend.. but more of a plaything.

[Candy Cook]

I realize your post was about other stuff. But, I like dogs. They're my favorite and I usually get along with them very well. So, thats what I posted about.

[Dawning]

Maybe this isn't a good unschooling answer, but I wish I had the photos of my friend's face to show your girls. I guarantee if they saw this photo, they would never again place their face next to a dachshund. My friend's wiener dog very unexpectedly ripped off her face. Several plastic surgeries later, she resembled a human again, but she never returned to modeling, a career she loved.

There are cultures that allow children to learn through consequence. I knew a Native American who's parents allowed him to be burned by the stove top rather than simply warn him. He certainly learned stoves can burn, but I'm not comfortable with allowing my children to learn through consequence when the situation could harm or disfigure them.

I ask my children to show respect for others, animals included, but if they can't manage that, they can't have the privilege. For example, if they want to eat snacks outside of the kitchen, they have to show enough respect to clean up after themselves. If bowls or crumbs are left unattended, I won't buy chips anymore because they aren't mature enough to act responsibly.

I'm sure Anna learned about glass and perhaps she'll take your wisdom to heart next time. As for the dog, I would step in to defend him by removing him and keeping him in another part of the house. If you're not able, you may have to make some really difficult decisions, but overall, safety has to come first.

[Paige]

I wish I *did* have pictures...maybe they would listen to pictures more than words. I might try googling and see what I can find.

[Monica Manzano]

How old is your dog? Breed? We had a similar situation with our dog. My 12yo would bother him while sleeping and he'd growl. He's a min-pin and has some quirks that have to do with his breed. He's become very protective of the house. He barks at certain times, cats, people.
Part of this 'over - protective' behavior is I feel that the children have overstimulated him in the past. One of the things he'd do if Tomas was running away playing, the dog would nip at his ankles.
I worked part-time for a dog food co. which is located in Petsmarts and I overheard many of the dog training classes.
I'd repeat to the children over and over, "watch it". They were training him to be mean.

Slowly they stopped bothering the dog. What is the clincher was that I told them about vicious dog behavior. The result of what would happen if the dog became so mean that out in public we could get into troubles. Essentially I scared them into the seriousness of it.

When a dog is out in public he can't bite people. I warned the boys some things are just unacceptable. It wasn't just my words, they've caught several 'dog training' programs on tv. When they saw dog misbehavior and the responsibilities owners have, then it really sunk in.

It's very hard to stay ahead of human behavior but some things can be predicted. Some things you can change and adjust like your door buzzer. But the 'dog behavior' is actually most serious. If the dog is too traumatized .... it could become dangerous. It's also problematic to un-traumatize or re-train the dog.

Our min-pin was dumped and after investigating it a little bit, I found out his previous owners were deaf. His puppyhood must have been traumatic to begin with. He has an irrational fear of boxes too! Something happened to him concerning boxes. Monica

[Joyce Fetteroll]

** It seems to be esclating more all of a sudden...I will ask them to stop, or tell them to stop doing something, and they keep on. **

What did you do in the past when you wanted them to stop something? What kind of response from you are they used to?

** We've reminded her, and reminded her over and over again to not knock on the window. **

If they were young and were continuing after they'd been told something is dangerous I'd say they weren't able to understand yet. So you do what you can to protect them while explaining. (Plexiglass over the glass or instead of the glass. Battery doorbell and the other suggestions people have given.) It's our job to keep them safe. It's fruitless and dangerous and irresponsible to trust a toddler to stop when a parent says "Stop" when they're heading for the street. It's the parents' job to keep them away from streets or keep right on top of them.

I'd offer that advice to parents of older kids too, of course, as a general rule. If they're repeatedly showing they're incapable of understanding, don't keep doing the same thing and hoping the light bulb will turn on. Think how the situation can be changed.

*But* since they aren't listening to something so obviously dangerous and they're old enough to understand, it suggests they've heard no a lot (in *their* opinion). It sounds like they've learned to tune no out.

At 11 and 13 they should be seeing you as on their team but for some reason they're seeing you as on the rules' team so they need to tune you out to get what they want.

When they aren't upset have you asked them about what's going on? (Try reading Sandra Dodd's Leaning on a Truck essay first.) Ask them for information so you can fix yourself rather than fixing them. Ask what's going on when you ask them stop bothering the dog and really listen to what it feels like from their point of view rather than listening (as most people do) to see if they're getting your point of view. If they say they hear no so much that it's just a buzz in their ears and you don't think that's true, don't argue. Listen and accept. Their view *will* be different. They're experiencing something different than you intend and you're not going to get them to listen until you adjust so they can hear you.

** They get mad at me if I physically make them move...stomp off yelling, then refuse to speak to me. **

Have you read:

The Explosive Child: A New Approach for Understanding and Parenting...

and another that might help is:

Raising Your Spirited Child: A Guide for Parents Whose Child Is Mor...

I've only heard good things about both.

[Schuyler Waynforth]

If punishments, then what? What would happen if you punished your daughter for breaking the window? What would happen if you punished your daughters for teasing the dog? What would it change? How would that be a more effective response?

If Simon or Linnaea were teasing Pickle, our dog, it's unlikely that he would ever do anything but walk away. When they have teased him I've rescued him. I've offered them other things to do with him. He's never bitten anyone but me accidentally (playing tug of war he bit my fingers thinking they were the towel, he let go as soon as I told him to) so I'm not afraid that he would hurt them. If I were afraid I would be very clear about what they are risking for him. Not their own pain, but his having to live somewhere else, his having to be put down if he responded to their teasing in such a way that public health officials got involved. They've also seen the scars on my hand from when I was bitten by a dog who had been teased. Mack was really sweet in the house, but over the fence into the backyard, he'd been teased, and he bit me when I reached over to pet him. The owner had told me to never reach over, but I thought he likes me enough.... He couldn't see anything that came over that fence as not a threat.

The window also seems like it is something you need to take responsibility for. Replace the door with a door with better windows or no windows. Get plexiglass, put in a doorbell, come up with another solution.

Given the title of your question I'm assuming that you used to punish. Your daughters may be responding so vehemently to you as a kind of backlash to your old approach. If Linnaea is attacking Simon or Simon is attacking Linnaea or mutually attacking each other, I step in between. I don't allow either of them to hurt the other, I physically block them from each other. Physically moving them tends to escalate things, but blocking their access to each other gives each of them space to move into instead of keeping them assaulting each other. It doesn't get rid of their anger, but in that moment it keeps them safe from each other. With the dog, I'd step in and/or take the dog away. I wouldn't leave them with just words of warning. I would absolutely direct that interaction.

[Paige]

Have mercy on me about the darn window!!! It's not just the back door window...that's just the one she happened to break. She knocks on windows everywhere. If there's a window she knocks on it, instead of the door. She's even knocked on the van windows with a stick. She knocks on other people's windows when we're at their houses.

(While I'm at it, I'm really not sure, either, what I'd do to punish her for knocking on windows. Just yell every time she does it, I guess...apparently it hasn't worked.)

"What did you do in the past when you wanted them to stop something? What kind of response from you are they used to?"

About the dog, before I'd have said "Go to your room." or something similar, along with saying "Stop."

"At 11 and 13 they should be seeing you as on their team but for some reason they're seeing you as on the rules' team so they need to tune you out to get what they want."

My oldest especially is especially antagonistic toward me...I suspect it's PMS right now... I *want* them to see us as a team, I just don't know how to get there from here.

I did look up pictures of dog bites last night to show them, and they agreed it would be best not to make the dog mad...but I don't know if they'll remember the next time they want to poke at the dog.