If No Punishments, Then What?

[Paige]

I'm in a quandry about what to do when my daughters (13 and 11) don't do what I ask.

It seems to be esclating more all of a sudden...I will ask them to stop, or tell them to stop doing something, and they keep on. There are two times it's happened this week, and I'm at a loss about how to respond to them.

First, they will come up to the dog when he's sleeping or eating, or chewing on his toy and stick their faces right up in his face. He growls, I say, "Don't bother the dog. He doesn't want to be bothered." They either keep their face in his, or remove it for just a second then put it right back. He growls two or three times, then when he gets tired of it, he snaps at them. They act like he's the worst dog ever, yell at him and scare him, but if I tell them more forcefully to move their face, they get mad at me and won't speak and act like I'm the worst mother ever.

Second thing....we've told the younger one not to knock on the window when she's knocking on the door...to actually knock on the *door* because the window may break and she could get cut. Well, Wednesday she went out the back door, couldn't open it when she wanted back in, so she knocked on the window until it broke, and she cut her hand and we had to take her to the doctor. (It didn't need stitches, he just glued it, but it scares me to think of how bad it could have been. It missed the big vein on the back of her hand by about a quarter inch.) We've reminded her, and reminded her over and over again to not knock on the window.

If we're not punishing them, is the only thing to do to wait until something bad happens? With Anna cutting her hand, she says now she will never knock on windows again, but she has already been bitten on the face (he just snapped at her and got her upper lip, barely broke the skin) and they keep on sticking their faces in his. My DH said apparently they won't stop bothering the dog until they loose part of their noses...

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-I did look up pictures of dog bites last night to show them, and they agreed it would be best not to make the dog mad...but I don't know if they'll remember the next time they want to poke at the dog.-=-

It's good for kids to know that dogs can bite and cats can scratch, but even if dogs couldn't bite, and cats couldn't scratch, tormenting them, scaring them, teasing them, should still not be okay. It's about the behavior of the child--whether she's being kind and gentle. To talk about the dogs' behavior or mood or relative danger seems to me to miss the point.

-=-My oldest especially is especially antagonistic toward me...I suspect it's PMS right now...-=-

PMS, ADD, sugar... there are many excuses adults use to dodge responsibility for children's responses to everyday situations. You said it ("it" not listening to you?) was escalating all of a sudden. Other things are happening in your life that are creating stress or frustration, I would guess. Instead of punishments, if the parents model acceptance and reason and making lots of little choices in mindful ways, kids can start to pick up the pattern, especially if the parents are there to make suggestions or to explain why something might be better than something else in a certain instance.

A rule about never knocking on glass might be as bad as an "always" knocking on glass, and I doubt there's anyone in the world who always knocks on glass. But if a mom says she always does, that becomes more important than the reality. Words should be as carefully chosen as actions.

I think there are ideas on these page that could help:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
http://sandradodd.com/partners/child

This one isn't as perfect a match, but might be helpful in the area of thinking about how things are said, and how someone's description of a situation can affect her responses and expectations:
http://sandradodd.com/phrases

[Paige]

"it"= antagonistic behaviour.

Are you doubting that PMS exists? What else could it be, when she's grouchy, then crying, then back to normal when her period starts? I had dreadful hormone issues from about 1995 to 2000...I don't doubt that when hormones are flooding your body you sometimes act out of control for no reason other than the hormones. (And she has just recently started having her period, so that could be why her behaviour has suddenly changed.)

I'm hearing everything from getting rid of the dog to buying plexiglass, but little so far about how to change *my* response to my girls when they keep on and keep on doing dangerous things.

(And, yeah, she probably doesn't "always" knock on the windows, but 9 times out of 10, when once is too much, needs to be done something about. My question is WHAT to do about it...I could buy plexiglass for every window in my house (assuming I had the money) but that wouldn't stop her from knocking on windows when she goes to her grandmother's house, or the library, or knocking on the van windows.) If I'm not punishing them for keeping on doing dangerous things when I've asked them to stop, how do I get them to stop?

[Sylvia Toyama]

I'm hearing everything from getting rid of the dog to buying plexiglass, but little so far about how to change *my* response to my girls when they keep on and keep on doing dangerous things.

There's no magical formula that says when you change your response, your kids will immediately make choices you consider better or safer. It's taken your family 13 yrs to be where you are today -- it's not realistic to expect things to change overnight.

When I read your original post, my first thought about the dog situation isn't that the girls love the dog so much they can't leave it alone, but that there's some animosity going on there. Why annoy/tease the dog? What response are they expecting from the dog? Any time my kids (12 & 7) are bugging a pet (we have one dog and one cat) I look at the situation. Is my child genuinely trying to connect with the dog/cat in a loving way? Is my child bugging the cat because he's bored, or restless and needs better entertainment and connection than the cat can offer? If my reminder to not treat the pet that way is ignored, I will remove the pet to protect them both. Then, it's time to figure out what need my child is trying to meet by bugging the animal. I try to assume positive intent. At a minimum, that my child is trying to meet a need.

If I'm not punishing them for keeping on doing dangerous things when I've asked them to stop, how do I get them to stop?

It's entirely possible they won't stop doing dangerous things. It's really not possible for you to control every thing your children do. Have you tried ignoring the dangerous behaviors and offering something more interesting and less dangerous for them to do? Redirection isn't just for toddlers -- it works for older kids and even adults sometimes.

With the glass door, I'd bet that now that she's been injured, she'll be much more careful of glass doors. I was very seriously injured at 19 when I pushed on the plate glass pane of a door, instead of the frame. I was hurrying, too, so I was severely cut on both my thumb and the back of my upper arm. It took 38 stitches to repair my arm, and I missed 3 wks of work. I recovered, and now I'm very careful never to push on glass. I offer the same advice to my kids, and having seen my scars, they get it. Still, tho, they sometimes push the glass. I may gently remind them, but often I say nothing. For what it's worth, in most public buildings -- retail, banks, apartments, etc -- building codes do require safety glass.

Schuyler did touch on the possibility that maybe your kids have heard too many no's from you. I agree that this looks a lot like a trust issue. Your kids see you as the agent who wants to spoil their fun, not as a trusted adviser who really does want them to live full, fun lives. Establishing trust takes time.

With my oldest son -- almost 24 now -- I was a single Mom. I worked full-time, with him in public school. I wanted to be the kind of Mom I am today, but had no good tools, so we had some really rough years. Trust was lost, feelings were hurt and it's been a long road back. I'm still re-parenting him in some ways. A big one is that I don't offer my two cents when he makes a mis-step. It's not that I don't care what happens to him, but I know that I don't do well when people offer me unsolicited advice. If I'm already feeling restless or grumpy (very likely if your daughter really is experiencing pms) such advice makes me feel like the person offering it must think I'm an idiot. Instead I offer comfort and engagement and ideas, without the admonitions.

I know Will is smart enough to have figured out that it was a bad idea to quit his job mid-shift last month. He doesn't need to hear me say that. He lives in his own apartment, so his income isn't just play money, it's bill-paying. What my husband and I have done is offer supportive ideas and creative ways for him to replace the lost job/income. He's been at our house for most of his meals something like 5 or 6 days a week (vs the previous once or twice a week we'd feed him). I make a point of having food I know he likes when he's here. He doesn't drive, so I've been very mindful of being available to help him out when he needs a ride somewhere. I haven't grumbled about the extra expense. He knows it costs extra money to feed him, and he tries to balance that by being helpful -- he's cooked several times, watches his brothers so I can run errands, carries in groceries, and has cleaned up different areas of the house a few times. He's trying not to be an ungrateful recipient of our help. I've let friends know that if they have yard work or household projects to be done, Will is available (he's done this before for extra money). I've passed on ideas from friend about available jobs. He's found creative options himself, and did manage to raise the money for his rent this month. Last week, he started a temp job that may well become more permanent, at least thru the holiday season. Most of all, he's maintained an overall positive mindset and he's kept up with his college schedule (he's enrolled part-time this semester).

When I get a text message from Will filled with doom and gloom (he's a bit moody even at his best) I offer supportive answers. Sometimes it's enough to remind him that things will get better and I love him. What he doesn't need is for me to remind him that he got here by making a bad choice. He knows that.

I'd bet your daughters know before they do it what you think is dangerous and undesirable. That may even be their clumsy way of trying to make contact with you. When a 2yo tugs at our shirt and cries for attention, we recognize that they need us to connect. When a 12yo acts out because they feel restless and disconnected, society tells us we should call it bad teenager behavior and punish them.

Years ago, when I had 13yo and a 2yo in the same house, I quickly learned they're not all that different at a basic level. Both needed my involvement, both wrestled with appropriate ways to communicate that need. Both children equally valued a loving response from me.

My best advice is love your daughters, help them find entertaining, enjoyable activities, be with them -- not just in the same room, but engaged with them. They sound bored and restless.

[Katherine]

I did look up pictures of dog bites last night to show them, and they agreed it would be best not to make the dog mad...but I don't know if they'll remember the next time they want to poke at the dog.

My siblings did the same thing with their kids and, by itself, it wasn't effective. They don't associate their own indulgent (though growling) family pets with the more over the edge dogs who did the damage shown in the pictures. I didn't either when I was a kid. My nephew and especially my niece still tease their dog (snauzer) frequently. It just absolutely unnerves me. No telling what it does to the dog.

It will take more dialogue and info than simply showing pictures ... though that helps to have as one bit of information, I agree.

[Katherine]

PMS, ADD, sugar... there are many excuses adults use to dodge responsibility for children's responses to everyday situations. You said it ("it" not listening to you?) was escalating all of a sudden. Other things are happening in your life that are creating stress or frustration, I would guess. Instead of punishments, if the parents model acceptance and reason and making lots of little choices in mindful ways, kids can start to pick up the pattern, especially if the parents are there to make suggestions or to explain why something might be better than something else in a certain instance.

I'm in a situation where I'm the parent who wants to promote gentle parenting and unschooling in the home. So the above is even more important if the pattern that kids can pick up usually only comes from one parent. I don't know if this is the situation with Paige or not.

I mention it because even just one parent using patterns of making lots of little choices helps tremendously, and in my own home, Karl really shows it. He frequently brings up stuff that's puzzling him to talk about with me (and Brian too) because I generally talk about having lots of options and that choosing to do better is almost always an option.

That gives Karl an overall feeling about the fact that I believe in him. A great thing to know about yourself is that somebody believes in you. It gives you courage to make changes when you need to.

[Katherine]

The replies you've been getting about changing the environment are different kinds of responses to your children. It just seems not to be because they're indirect as responses go.

Read Sandra Dodd's truck essay again that Joyce Fetteroll posted.

Indirectness is strangely effective. Especially when overarching changes such as PMS are involved.

People are trying to help here. Avoid getting frustrated... and if it helps you, don't answer individual's questions. You're not obliged to. Just glean from the wisdom that you can find and puzzle over the other stuff until you can decode those things or ask your own questions in order to decode them.

[Katherine]

Years ago, when I had 13yo and a 2yo in the same house, I quickly learned they're not all that different at a basic level. Both needed my involvement, both wrestled with appropriate ways to communicate that need. Both children equally valued a loving response from me.

My best advice is love your daughters, help them find entertaining, enjoyable activities, be with them -- not just in the same room, but engaged with them. They sound bored and restless.

I agree about teens and toddlers being very similar about the need for attention and doing seemingly inappropriate things to get that attention often defines the toddler and teen years. Geez, I remember being the same way when I was a teen. I was at loose ends a lot... and much of the time I was bored to flenders.

Awhile back, I read someone's opinion that teens are beginning to think about making their own way into the world and have many of the same insecurities and worries that a toddler has.

Just like kids aren't toddlers forever, and you won't be picking them up to hold them much beyond toddlerhood, kids aren't teens forever either.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

** I *want* them to see us as a team, I just don't know how to get there from here. **

Slowly and by rebuilding the relationship so they trust you again.

If your husband were an alcoholic and said he had given up drinking. How long after he stopped would you really trust that he had finally given it up. Years of damaged trust doesn't heal just by you willing it. You have to *earn* it back through being trustworthy for a long time.

We don't have magic words that make our kids listen. We have years of either supporting their natural trust for those who started from the beginning or years of rebuilding it for those who began with broken trust. Your kids can't hear you helping them until your words feel like help and not control. It's going to take work and patience on your part to rebuild their trust. If you back slide, you have to start over.

Read at Sandra's site. Read at mine. Read here.

[Schuyler Waynforth]

I'm hearing everything from getting rid of the dog to buying plexiglass, but little so far about how to change *my* response to my girls when they keep on and keep on doing dangerous things.

You are getting a lot of suggestions about how to change your response. Stop your girls from teasing the dog. Look for more than two options in a situation, people have suggested lots of ways around your daughter feeling like she needed to knock on the window of the back door to be heard. If that wasn't really what was going on, if the window knocking was a more regular occurence than the original post stated, it isn't really the fair to expect the people who are writing here to have known that.

I was thinking about what you wrote about knocking on other windows. Maybe she likes the way they sound, the way the feel, something. I don't know where one gets hold of glass, call a glazier and see if they have some windows that weren't the right size for an order that they could sell you for cheap and let her knock on those. Explore the strength of the glass. Linnaea threw a rock at a window of ours and it cracked the window, but the window didn't break or shatter. This house has double glazing and the glass is incredible sturdy. Are you sure that those other windows are as fragile as the back door window turned out to be? Talk to her about what she likes about glass, get some cool colored glass from thrift stores and break them and use the shards to make mosaics, if you live near a beach look for beach glass, if you live near a lake look for lake glass. Find a glass blower near you and go look at glass being made, see if she can have a go. Simon and Linnaea made glass tiles at a glass place in Sunderland once. Linnaea's tile is a flower and Simon's is a swordsman.

You have to think. You have to come up with ideas that are more than teasing the dog and being punished or teasing the dog and being bitten. Keep the dog by your side, get rid of the dog (I know that seems extreme, but it's a thinking exercise as much as anything else), put the dog outside during the day, distract them when they start teasing the dog, make sure that you are engaging them more, train the dog, invite them to care for the dog more.

If I'm not punishing them for keeping on doing dangerous things when I've asked them to stop, how do I get them to stop?

Sometimes you don't. Sometimes they do the dangerous thing with all the information you've given them. Sometimes the thing isn't as dangerous as you thought it was. Sometimes it isn't dangerous at all. Sometimes they get hurt. Sometimes they get hurt doing something that you didn't think was dangerous enough to merit a warning. Sometimes the rush from the danger fills them up with adrenaline and excitement and they love it. Sometimes they love the dangerous thing so much they make a life doing it.

[Rachel Tomassone]

When I was 10 my sister would'nt open the door for me and I kept banging on the window with my hand. To make a long story short....I put my hand through the window and had to have 5 stitches put in my wrist. It FREAKED me out....scared the crap out of me. PLEASE do not knock on the windows kids...It REALLY hurts! I'm 46 now and have never forgotten it.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-I'm hearing everything from getting rid of the dog to buying plexiglass, but little so far about how to change *my* response to my girls when they keep on and keep on doing dangerous things.-=-

Please read the three links above that. I think it's all about how to change your thoughts and beliefs which will change your responses.

[Cally Brown]

Yes, yes, and yes, Sylvia! I'm still trying to undo some of the damage I did to my now 27yo. We have recovered so much, but the sooner one starts, the sooner the relationship will improve. Sadly, I didn't 'see the light' till he was into his 20s.

Even at 57, I don't respond well to a raking over of my mistakes. If it is obvious that I don't see where I went wrong, then a gentle explanation, offered without criticism, direct or implied, will help. Anything else just makes my soul shrivel and my behaviour defensive.