LIMITS, RULES, FORCING

[Jacob Seligmann]

can anyone be brutally honest here?
can you please share some things that might not be so popular on this site?
i really, really, want to know
how unschoolers limit their children.
i want to know when things don't go the unschooling way...
when things get out of hand and controls are utilized and rules enforced
i am truly deeply curious about this because it represents a boundary
of lawlessness... like, where does the limitlessness break down
so to be specific, i'll ask some questions and i would greatly appreciate
anyone answering any of them, and i'd really like to hear from the people who
consider themselves dedicated radical unschoolers,

1) Does anyone have any rules? I'm especially interested in what people do about brushing teeth. Like in our house, there's a basic rule... the kids must brush their teeth in the morning and night. So far, i'm doing the brushing. But if my 4 year old whines about it and tries to get away, i explain why we brush, what cavities are, and if necessary, i show her my fillings. Now of course i can hear someone saying that i am operating out of fear and imposing my own fear based philosophy on my children. As far as i'm concerned i'm acting out of reality and imposing a strictly scientific rule to avoid tooth decay and painful dental procedures (that cost a lot of money too) This would be a great one for people to respond to. Anyone not force brushing? Anyone who does? Why? How? Explanation? Details... stories? I'd love to hear...

2) What limits can you think of that you impose on your children? What limits did you used to impose but worked through and stopped imposing? What limits did you consider and try to avoid but ended up sticking with? Limits about tv? bedtime? wake time? phone time? money spending? money making (anyone use chores for payment? anyone pay their children for anything? give allowance?) any limits on buying things? on food? on language? on books? on sexual content or discussion or sex in the house? anything you can think of would be helpful as a study in how to define limits and radical unschooling for me, and i'm sure for others too...

3)what are your doubts, if any, about the path you've chosen and the decisions you've made? Any experiences that have shown you that you've made the wrong decision? Any radical changes because of experiences? Anything you wish you would have done earlier, or not done? Any area of the freedoms you've offered your children that you think differently of now, or that you've curtailed? anyone see any problems coming from certain freedoms?

4) and also... when have you lost it? have you ever just had enough? has pushing the envelope on limitlessness ever become too much? have you ever raised your voice? physically removed a child from a situation because of acting out of control? become angry? gotten really frustrated? felt justified in the anger? felt taken advantage of? felt like radical unschooling was all a big mistake?

i hope someone can answer some of these questions... i'm not looking to punch holes in the argument for unschooling but i think it would be helpful to have a clear and brutally honest picture of how radical notions can stir up radical responses or just helping to see where the challenges lie... i hope they are helpful for others too to consider... i love this forum and am thankful for all the replies. thanks... and of course, if anyone has anything to add to this i'd love to read... i'm just trying to get a overhead view of what limits might look like in radical unschooling... where are they? what are they... why? how?

looking forward...

jacob

[Rachael S]

I love your questions, Jacob. Since I'm new I have no relevant answers for you, but I'm following this thread via email updates. Thanks for taking the time to write what you did- it'll be helpful to many, I imagine.

[Alex Polikowsky]

Its late and I am very tired .
All this questions have been asked many times.
Have you read anything on SandraDodd.com
or Joyce Fetteroll's site?
Please go to those and read, read read then come and ask questions.
That would help you a lot.
Some links about what you asked:
http://sandradodd.com/rules
http://sandradodd.com/limits
http://sandradodd.com/freedom
http://sandradodd.com/choice
Teeth => http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/unschooling%20in%20action/brushingteet...
setting limits=> http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/settingli...

These should be able to keep you busy reading for a while!

[Jacob Seligmann]

I have read sandradodd's site for years and i love it. But i'm looking for more varied and personal stories to sort through and think about. i have really enjoyed many of the posts i've encountered here so i thought people would be willing to share their personal stories with regard to these issues here... if not, that's cool...

[Rachael S]

Jacob, you were clear to me. It sounds like you want some honest thought on the real world applications of unschooling as opposed to more philosophical guidance. I would hope that on an unschooling site, given the inherent open mindedness, people will feel free to get real about what it's REALLY like. I'm clear on the philosophy, too, and there is much I absolutely resonate with, but I'll probably feel more comfortable with it as a way of being in the world when I hear from people who, like me, weren't raised in such a fashion and who, like me, have their struggles and reservations with it.

[Sylvia Toyama]

I'm with Alex on this one. These questions have been answered countless times. I cannot think of one article on Sandra's huge site that isn't accompanied by a real-life story of what happened, how it was resolved, what the kids did, what the mom did, and how unschooling figured into it all.

Quick answers, tho, then it's off to bed for me.

Yes, we have expectations and principles - not hard-and-fast-here's what will happen if you don't follow them rules, tho. Pretty much -- Respect others and be kind

Limits -- really covered pretty well in the principles above.

No doubts here, and my only regrets are that it took as long as it did for me to find unschooling.

Yeah, I've lost it at times. I yell sometimes, tho less and less as the years go by. I have absolutely physically removed a child who was hitting others or in some other way harming others.

I've been frustrated and felt taken advantage of, which are signs to me that I need to take better care of myself and set some boundaries -- usually it means I'm trying to do too much other than be with my family, so it's time to pare down.

My kids do a pretty good job of teeth-brushing. One is fabulous about it and has only one tiny cavity in 13 yrs. The other not so good, and he's had some baby teeth crowned, but they came in weak, so it's not all about hygeine. The permanent teeth look great and rather than say 'you must' I just say something like "Dude, those teeth look kinda orange" or "what did you eat, your breath stinks!" with a smile, followed by "go brush your teeth" and he brushes. Now that he's 8, he often comes to me to show me he brushed on his own.

With my oldest I made the mistake (IMO) of forcing brushing and once he was too old for me to force the issue, he got very careless about it. Now, at 24, he's better about it but I can only imagine how fuzzy his teeth were for most of his teen years. Ick.

Now, go read - I promise if you do you'll find real stories of what real people have done with their children as unschoolers.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

Darn I had a bunch at the beginning that disappeared …

Brushing teeth is about assuming they don't want cavities and figuring out how to remove the obstacles. The link Alex made to teeth brushing shows the problem solving approach. It's not about making the child, it's about helping them find ways to be healthy. Instead of turning the child into the problem (won't brush) keep focused on the real problem: preventing cavities. Brushing teeth twice a day isn't the only way. Think outside the box.

The Transitions page is another one that tackles a problem from a problem solving point of view. My original intent was to collect tips, but what I ended up with was a collection of ways people were treating their children's with courtesy as they found ways to tackle the problem.

The idea of tackling problems from an impose limits point of view is foreign to me now. It's all about problem solving, working together to find a solution.

bedtime?
wake time?
phone time?
money spending?
money making (anyone use chores for payment?
anyone pay their children for anything?
give allowance?) any limits on buying things?
on food?
on language?
on books?
on sexual content or discussion or sex in the house?
anything you can think of would be helpful as a study in how to define limits and radical unschooling for me, and i'm sure for others too…

Nothing on that list seems in need of a top down decision.

Bed and waketime are about finding ways to help kids fall asleep when they're tired. It gets complex because some parents are nightowls and are fine staying up until 1. But there have been plenty of discussions of various night routines that help wind the house down, and helping kids to transition to sleep. It's not an easy process to sum up but no where is there the necessity of forcing a child to sleep or wake by the clock.

There is common courtesy, an understanding that being up means being quiet. It's not a rule. There's no punishment if someone doesn't. It just means "Go to bed if you can't be quiet." It's the same courtesy that would be requested of an adult.

There are also things that need being awake at a certain time, but sensitivity and communication is key. Not "You need to be up and out by 9," but "*If* you want to go we need to be out by 9." And mom helps them work through the going or deciding not to go. Appointments shouldn't be made early if kids aren't normally up early. Classes should be about them, so their decision. And the times when something is beyond our control, they're way more likely to be understanding because it happens so rarely.

Money is another huge subject. There are ways to handle all of that without limits but without it being a free for all. UnschoolingDiscussion and unschoolingbasics have lots of threads about the subject of money.

Language, again, is about helping kids recognize where it's appropriate. Kids don't want to hurt others. If a child can't figure out where language is appropriate, then it's best not to take them there until they're older. (And maybe it's their only form of power and they're protesting that they've been made to be there.)

If Kathryn wants to do something that doesn't feel safe or that I feel has potential for repercussions then we talk about it and find a way for it to be safe or an alternative. Because we trust her, she trusts us. Because she's never had to fight to get what she wants, because we've put effort into finding ways for her to get what she wants, she understands the process and appreciates the effort and doesn't see requests as leading to yes/no but leading to problem solving.

sex in the house

Or smoking. How that's handled will be based on whatever house courtesy is. And when kids have been treated courteously, they respond with courtesy. They may not understand someone's need, but since their needs have been treated with respect, they respond with respect.

I have to make this up since Kathryn doesn't smoke either, but if she wanted to smoke cigarettes or pot in the house, I'd say no. Not because it's a rule, but because it's not courteous to smoke around people (me) who don't want it. And the pot would be a no, not because I'd fear we'd get in trouble but because I can honestly say I wouldn't want her choice to put me at risk of getting in trouble.

Some might read rules or limits into that but the dynamic beneath is far removed from rules. She'd know that she could smoke (if she did but she doesn't!) in the house but I'd be disappointed and angry that she didn't care. But she does care. That's a huge point! And she cares because I've treated her and her needs with courtesy.

When she had a friend visiting and they were up to all hours watching music videos and screeching with laughter, I came down and said "Whoa! Way too loud!" and she understood that sleep takes priority over being loud. She's respectful and courteous because she's been treated with respect and courtesy, because she's been helped to find solutions to her needs that are respectful and courteous and safe.

It's just a whole 'nuther mind set from limits.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- on sexual content or discussion or sex in the house? -=-

Did you mean to write "discussion of sex in the house"? Or is what you wrote what you meant to write?

[Joyce Fetteroll]

has pushing the envelope on limitlessness ever become too much?

The question makes me think you are still totally confused about what unschooling is.

You need to empty your cup before you can put something new in. Read at the links with fresh eyes. You're trying to warp radical unschooling into the opposite of limits when it isn't. It's a totally different approach.

physically removed a child from a situation because of acting out of control?

If a child is removed it shouldn't be because of anger. It's because it's not fair to the child or to others for the child to remain. Maybe they're not ready. Maybe they're hungry or tired. Maybe the parent will never know.

What's even more important is being aware enough to notice the build up and redirect the child or leave before they get beyond their limits.

and also... when have you lost it? have you ever just had enough?

Again, the best solution is to recognize the build up and do something before it reaches that stage.

become angry? gotten really frustrated? felt justified in the anger? felt taken advantage of?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking if unschoolers just have limitless patience with chaos? Are you asking if unschoolers are perfect so are never rattled or have bad days?

felt like radical unschooling was all a big mistake?

You're assuming chaos and that's why you're not getting it. Unschooling is actually *much* easier than what conventional parents go through. There is way less stress in the house, way more working together to solve problems.

So, no.

have you ever raised your voice?

I'm not a yeller, but if the question means are unschoolers perfect, this is another one of those foreign ideas. No one's perfect.

We aren't passing on ways to be perfect or criticizing others for not being perfect. (Though I sure understand it gets read that way.)

The purpose is to help people see clearer so they can make better choices. If you don't have a clear (perfect) vision of where you're headed, it's hard to recognize when you've made a choice that leads away and harder to make choices that lead toward.

If you, for instance, continue to think your words convey your intent to your daughter ("You're beautiful just as you are."), you're not going to be able to see when you unintentionally hurt her. Let go of the concept of "being wrong" and look towards the concept of seeing clearer and making better and better choices that move you toward a better relationship.

[Dawning]

In our home many of these questions take care of themselves simply because we respect each other. We don't really have rules, but rather safety considerations.

Teeth brushing falls into health and safety. We have explained to our children why teeth brushing is a necessity, and honestly, they have never disagreed with us. Maybe it goes back to the respect thing. We give them so much freedom and are careful to respect their feelings, so perhaps tooth brushing isn't something they feel the need to rebel against?

After over 10 years of unschooling, the only time doubts surface for me is when I worry if they will be judged by others who have gone through the "system", but that's my hang up, not theirs. They frankly don't care what others think of them. Growing up unschooling, they still have their self confidence intact.

The only time I lost it was when they decided to street luge down the driveway, laying down on their skateboards. I watched in horror as the on coming car stopped just in time before squishing my son to a pancake. Talk about releasing a primal scream! This came down to the issue of safety. I lost it, but I believe I was justified in doing so.

They didn't need to be punished after this. My reaction was enough to convey to them how moronic their actions had been. Not only am I 100% certain they will use better judgment next time, they also know how much I love them. We can laugh about my tirade now, and they have forgiven me for yelling at them, but that's because they understood how frightened I was believing harm was going to come to them.

With love, respect and understanding there hasn't been any unschooling obstacle we haven't been able to over come. When I grow weary, I know its because I'm listening too much to my doubt voice. I stop, reconnect with my children and/or focus on my own unschooling and things always fall back into place.

[Rachael S]

I, for one, found Dawning's comments- and others like them- useful, and I particularly appreciated the lack of teacherly commentary with regard to Jacob's understanding of unschooling (or- in this case- his lack thereof) as well as reminders to Jacob to read apparently required material (with "fresh eyes"), and THEN be of the level worthy of asking his questions (the implication being that he is wasting everyone's time?). I also appreciate the lack of need to defend unschooling, and the lack of accusation toward Jacob that he is trying to "warp radical unschooling into the opposite of limits," or trying to do anything but understand what it's like to unschool, and to do so in a "live," interactive forum.
If there is a syllabus somewhere that lists reading and understanding certain literature in the same way that the rest of the "class" understands it as a prerequisite to inquiring on this site, please list it outright. Also, if there is a list of screening questions that would accurately gauge one's appropriate level of understanding and buy in, or, in some cases, a degree to which one is, "the epitome of sweetness and light," please post this, also. That way prospective members could weed themselves out without being subjected to such condescending scrutiny. Thanks again for your useful and honest comments, Dawning. Please forgive what might seem like sarcasm. It is my gut reaction to condescension and irony.

[Frank Maier]

You remind me of the quote by Anatole France: The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.

[JennyStar]

I would hope that on an unschooling site, given the inherent open mindedness, people will feel free to get real about what it's REALLY like.

Are you implying that long time unschoolers are hiding something? As if what people are saying here isn't entirely accurate because surely these things can't be true. Maybe you aren't meaning to imply this but it does come through.

I'm clear on the philosophy, too, and there is much I absolutely resonate with, but I'll probably feel more comfortable with it as a way of being in the world when I hear from people who, like me, weren't raised in such a fashion and who, like me, have their struggles and reservations with it.

I'm sure that most unschooling parents weren't raised the way they are choosing to raise their own children. It doesn't help to stay there, to get unschooling to work. You really have to let go of how you were raised to really get unschooling to work well. When you start questioning, you start questioning everything.

It will help to hear stories of how unschooling looks in unschooling families. It doesn't necessarily help to hear stories of traditionally raised kids and how that worked for them, except in comparison of what NOT to do and why.

Joyce Fetterol and Sandra Dodd have been collecting these stories for years.