LIMITS, RULES, FORCING

[Jacob Seligmann]

can anyone be brutally honest here?
can you please share some things that might not be so popular on this site?
i really, really, want to know
how unschoolers limit their children.
i want to know when things don't go the unschooling way...
when things get out of hand and controls are utilized and rules enforced
i am truly deeply curious about this because it represents a boundary
of lawlessness... like, where does the limitlessness break down
so to be specific, i'll ask some questions and i would greatly appreciate
anyone answering any of them, and i'd really like to hear from the people who
consider themselves dedicated radical unschoolers,

1) Does anyone have any rules? I'm especially interested in what people do about brushing teeth. Like in our house, there's a basic rule... the kids must brush their teeth in the morning and night. So far, i'm doing the brushing. But if my 4 year old whines about it and tries to get away, i explain why we brush, what cavities are, and if necessary, i show her my fillings. Now of course i can hear someone saying that i am operating out of fear and imposing my own fear based philosophy on my children. As far as i'm concerned i'm acting out of reality and imposing a strictly scientific rule to avoid tooth decay and painful dental procedures (that cost a lot of money too) This would be a great one for people to respond to. Anyone not force brushing? Anyone who does? Why? How? Explanation? Details... stories? I'd love to hear...

2) What limits can you think of that you impose on your children? What limits did you used to impose but worked through and stopped imposing? What limits did you consider and try to avoid but ended up sticking with? Limits about tv? bedtime? wake time? phone time? money spending? money making (anyone use chores for payment? anyone pay their children for anything? give allowance?) any limits on buying things? on food? on language? on books? on sexual content or discussion or sex in the house? anything you can think of would be helpful as a study in how to define limits and radical unschooling for me, and i'm sure for others too...

3)what are your doubts, if any, about the path you've chosen and the decisions you've made? Any experiences that have shown you that you've made the wrong decision? Any radical changes because of experiences? Anything you wish you would have done earlier, or not done? Any area of the freedoms you've offered your children that you think differently of now, or that you've curtailed? anyone see any problems coming from certain freedoms?

4) and also... when have you lost it? have you ever just had enough? has pushing the envelope on limitlessness ever become too much? have you ever raised your voice? physically removed a child from a situation because of acting out of control? become angry? gotten really frustrated? felt justified in the anger? felt taken advantage of? felt like radical unschooling was all a big mistake?

i hope someone can answer some of these questions... i'm not looking to punch holes in the argument for unschooling but i think it would be helpful to have a clear and brutally honest picture of how radical notions can stir up radical responses or just helping to see where the challenges lie... i hope they are helpful for others too to consider... i love this forum and am thankful for all the replies. thanks... and of course, if anyone has anything to add to this i'd love to read... i'm just trying to get a overhead view of what limits might look like in radical unschooling... where are they? what are they... why? how?

looking forward...

jacob

[Tammy Brooks]

Wow, this is such a great response and really gives a sense of how these things can be handled without resorting to force or control, but still ensuring that the underlying need (for safety, health, respect, etc) gets met. I am still struggling sometimes to find ways to do this as a new unschooler, but the difference even what I have been able to manage so far has had in my relationship with my son is amazing. Thanks for being so clear.

[Sylvia Toyama]

there are so many areas that are just so difficult for me. Just look at the different responses to tooth brushes... how many degrees and variations of radical there are. We brush but they don't mind, we don't force but we say your breath stinks... etc... it's amazing.

*****
Man, y'all were up late last night! I've finally read all the replies here that were tagged in my box, and this piece is the one that jumped out at me. I'm the one who said I will sometimes tell my son his breath stinks. It's probably a small point, but to clear up the -- mistaken -- picture of me unkindly telling my son his breath stinks....

If you've not been the Mom of an 8yo boy, you may not be familiar with the fascination some 8yo boys have for anything gross. When I tell Dan (my 8yo) "your breath stinks" I do it with a grin, and I'm quoting Donkey in Shrek, because these days he delights in being told we think he's stinky.

He also delights in counting farts, wearing jeans so holey we tease him that he must have found them on an 80's rock star, and his current fascination is with all things weapons. Thanks to Dan, I'm probably on several Homeland Security watch-lists for time spent on Ebay shopping for guns and knives.

[Rachael S]

Thank you for your writing, Joyce. It was very helpful to me. I needed to hear it, and it's helping me to not become so reactive when I hear something that makes me uncomfortable.

[Sarah]

I'm new on the social blog scene.

If you're new to participating in forums (like this one), then I have some sympathy for you. When I first jumped into forums five or so years ago, I made the same basic mistakes you're making here.

It's generally good sense when you join a board or email list to hang around for a bit to get the 'feel' of the place and personalities. Even if you see a subject you feel strongly about, it's smart to just sit that out and watch how others on the board handle the subject so you don't jump in half-cocked and passionate and alienate those who with a better introduction to you would enjoy your presence.

I've found that some boards are sarcastic, others have dry humor, others are humorless, some are straight-shooting-not-for-the-faint-of-heart, some are sympathetic no matter what you do. Some require intelligent, well-spelled and punctuated posts while others resemble texting in the posting style.

All of the unschooling boards I've joined, save for the one on Mothering, are straight talking boards. They all expect grown-ups to come to them wanting to examine themselves and be willing to grow and change for their children's sakes. And none of them coddle. That's not to say they're not supportive, you just have to examine your definition of supportive and realize that sometimes the best support you can receive is someone saying "NEVER hit your kids. 'Everybody loses it' is not an excuse. NEVER hit your kids." or "You are doing harm to your daughter by telling her that the dolls she's interested in are crap."

If you're new to the board/social forum/email list scene, when you join one in the future, just sit back and relax there for awhile. On boards that are like this, 'lurking' is expected. I think I lurked on the AlwaysUnschooled email list for over two months before I posted. That list is quite a bit like this forum - intelligent, thoughtful, and expecting ideas to be thoroughly examined.

To move this forum to invite-only would be to shut out those who stumble upon it or see a vague reference and come to check it out and really need it. Sure it might shut out those who aren't ready to be involved in conversations like this, but it would also shut out those who *are* ready and need it.

[Andy Marshall]

very strong urge to reply to each and every point here, but i get the feeling that woulnd't be helpful to anyone, least of all me...

maybe then, just this one point is worth replying to:
It's much easier to understand the atmosphere if the forum is seen as a help desk rather than a social gathering. That doesn't mean someone can't start a social thread to talk about stuff. But if someone brings up ideas that don't help radical unschooling, those ideas will be examine. The person isn't being criticized. The ideas are being examined though.

i think i must have just misunderstood what this website is for then... i think i had assumed it was more of a social gathering of mutual and inclusive discussion.
that this website is set up as social network, that the name is "radical unschoolers network", subtitled a "network for unschooling families", and from the front page of this site: "the radical unschoolers network is a social forum for RU families...and those interested in the RU lifestyle", i guess i wrongly assumed it was a social network for families to explore and get support for walking the path towards radical unschooling.
if this is more just a set of FAQs, then at least now i know.

what i dont then get, is what is radical unschooling? - is there some kinda of ruleset, guidelines, page on here to tell us what this RU thing is and what it isn't so if someone is just visiting, and "interested in the RU lifestyle" they can go to to get a better picture for it?
it seems to come across to me that there is this "thing" called RU that a set of people on here have created and shaped and live out to a reasonable degree of success and are there to provide guidance, ideas and solutions for people who also want to subscribe to this approach of parenting and come under the umbrella of RU.
kinda like if someone walked into a anglican church and wanted to be a part of it, well then theres this way of doing stuff, there are songs to sing, liturgy to be read, teaching and dogma to learn. do those things and you're a part of teh church community.

it would appear however, that there is no public place to question these unwritten but fundamental principles and a challenge to these or as you put it "ideas that don't help radical unschooling" then those attitudes will be "examined".

before i go on, is that what you are meaning to do?
that is, if that is what you're meaning the website to be for, that fine, i just wanted to understand better....

[Joyce Fetteroll]

if this is more just a set of FAQs, then at least now i know.

I'm not sure how questions that get personal answers is a set of FAQs, so that's got me scratching my head.

As for a social network, it seems like it should work. Unschoolers should be able to get together and just talk. But from the attempts I've seen over 14 years, the problem is that without the straightforward discussion, there isn't enough substance for people to take the time to visit. Initially it sounds like a great idea. But in practice, the traffic drifts off.

If anyone knows of a purely social forum for unschoolers, I hope they'll post it.

is there some kinda of ruleset, guidelines, page on here to tell us what this RU thing is and what it isn't

It's one of the questions people answered for their "My Page" at this site. I suspect you'd have to go through every one, to read them, though.

But, I guess, no. Odd. I have definitions of Unschooling at my site (left side, top).

There's a Wikipedia page on Unschooling with the mention that Sandra "proposed the term 'radical unschooling' to emphasize the complete rejection of any distinction between educational and non-educational activities."

And there's Sandra's page on Radical.

In short it's extending the principles of unschooling into the family. It's not just for academics :-)

it seems to come across to me that there is this "thing" called RU that a set of people on here have created and shaped and live out to a reasonable degree of success and are there to provide guidance, ideas and solutions for people who also want to subscribe to this approach of parenting and come under the umbrella of RU.

Well, yeah, mostly. Unschooling began with John Holt. He coined the term. Here's a brief history. Though some were already extending the principles into family life, the actual term rose in response to unschoolers who didn't want to let go of limits and rules for their family. They wanted unschooling to just mean academics. As far as I remember it was born on AOL in the homeschooling forums or the Home Education Magazine forums. Or a little later on the lists for Home Education Magazine? Not sure.

it would appear however, that there is no public place to question these unwritten but fundamental principles and a challenge to these or as you put it "ideas that don't help radical unschooling" then those attitudes will be "examined".

At one time I was perfectly happy to defend unschooling until I realized not everyone has the same goals. If someone's goal is to prepare their child for MIT, unschooling won't work and it's senseless to defend its "validity". It's validity extends only as far as the goals of unschooling fit with someone's personal goals. (I posted Kelly's list of principles recently which should help seeing the goals. Growing great relationships, fostering a love of exploring.

So the research into what radical unschooling is and what it's good for is left up to people. If they decide it's intriguing, that it looks like a good fit with their goals, then they can ask questions that will help them get a better picture.

[Rachael S]

I agree with your line of questioning, Andy. I also felt tempted to respond to Joyce's many points, but I now fear my input would be disrespectful, given what I now understand about the intent of this site. I'm still confused, though, and I'm not ready to believe that the "radical" aspect of this site makes what I can only consider an intolerant, fundamentalist bend a foregone conclusion. So, I'll wait for an answer.
It was pointed out to me in an earlier post that an assumption is made about the genre of parents on this site; that it is reasonable to assume the majority of people on this site are radical unchoolers. I accept and understand that, but I would like to hear it stated clearly whether the opinions and questions of the "minority" are welcome, and if so, what limits are expected in this regard. The minority in this case is the group of parents who, although curious about or even active in unschooling, have questions with or haven't bought in to EVERY tenet of the RU philosophy. If input from the minority is acceptable, I would like to know about any as yet unspoken-but clearly implied- behavioral expectations of this minority, particularly if the majority is not held to the same expectations. Thanks again for your bold input, Andy. I can behave myself as well as anyone when I am clear on behavioral expectations. It would, admittedly, surprise me if a group committed to honoring the free expression of children would not, within reason, honor the expression of other unschooling parents as well. I look forward to clarification.

[Alan Marshall]

...I would like to hear it stated clearly whether the opinions and questions of the "minority" are welcome

I can't speak for the site, but it seems obvious that the minority is welcome. Here you are posting, freely expressing your opinions.

and if so, what limits are expected in this regard.

There don't seem to be any limits. You and others are free to disagree with the more experienced unschoolers who have been giving of their time to try to help those who want to understand radical unschooling better. Keep in mind that they are equally free to disagree and to respectfully but forcefully state their case.

It would, admittedly, surprise me if a group committed to honoring the free expression of children would not, within reason, honor the expression of other unschooling parents as well

Yes, as you say, within reason. If someone comes along and in effect says "I'm not a radical unschooler, you people are crazy, prove to me you're not crazy right now" over and over day after day, I don't think that is within reason. Still, as far as I know, no one has been banned or even asked to stopped questioning. A fairly polite and completely respectful discussion continues.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-slavery i would say, while it may have some interesting parallels, is way too volatile and unhelpful an analogy to use.
how about... the police force / public relationship? or maybe something as simple as an employer / employee relationship? would those be slightly more helpful analogies to use to better understand a dynamic of control / authority / power?
-=-

The police force is hired to keep laws of a community into which individuals have chosen to live, generally speaking.

Children are born against their will to parents who have HUGE legal rights over every aspect of their existence for eighteen years. If not slavery, maybe prison would be a better analogy. Certainly many teens feel imprisoned by house rules with punishments involving locking them even further into the house (grounded or confined to their rooms with those windows such as TV and internet and phone removed).

It's not at all like employer/employee unless your kids have the right to quit just any old day and go and find another employer/parent.

[Lyla]

>> I have no intention of introducing a curriculum, but I force my girls to brush their teeth and I don't allow tv in the daytime and only at night after earning fake money units in the house by cleaning up messes that i would otherwise have to clean up which they've made...>>

i just posted on a different list (not an unschooling list) in response to a thread in which a bunch of parents were extolling the virtues of poker chip and ticket reward systems with their (right brained, homeschooled) kids. i never imagined this'd become an issue on a radical unschooling list, but here is what is said, as i think it applies to this discussion as well -and only one person there was talking about payment for eating, getting dressed, tooth brushing - it was mostly about chores and other "responsibilities"

as the fairly recently unschooling (1.5 years) parent of a 10.5 and a 14 year old, i have a lot more to say about the negative impacts of more traditional (yet still quite "radical") approaches to chores, tasks, food, sleep, and relationships in a family in general. i have BEEN on both sides and have seen first hand where we were headed with that approach and how things have improved since abandoning it. the concepts discussed here, and on sandra's site, etc. have made a HUGE impact on our family and my relationship with both my kids. i can't post more right now, but will try later this weekend when i get back from an overnight with my teen daughter and her best friend - just the three of us in a rented house on the coast, watching movies and hanging out. she wants me INVOLVED in that, not just as a chaperone/driver, and that is *entirely* due to the changes we've made in the last couple of years.

here's the post i made on that other list:

has anyone thought about how being "paid" with rewards for eating meals, getting dressed, and even performing "chores" translates in a child's mind in terms of what those activities then MEAN to a child. if a child needs to be paid to eat - a basic bodily function - that sends a message that eating must be inherently unpleasant and one cannot be trusted to actually KNOW when one is hungry....

*please* reconsider these manipulative systems of control.

there is huge body of literature about the detrimental impacts of rewards and punishments on children - even on adults! people of all ages actually "perform" LESS well when offered incentives than when they are performing purely for intrinsic motivational purposes. our kids are not dogs, nor clay to be molded - they are complex, individual humans. obedience in and of itself as a goal for our kids harbors so many hidden and not so hidden risks. please consider helping kids learn to do "the right thing" just because it's the right thing, and because kids are innately social, wanting to belong and contribute to a family in a meaningful way - even if it doesn't look the way WE imagine. by manipulating kids to do our bidding, we are teaching them, through MODELLING, to be manipulative. is that really what we want to be teaching (what we want our kids to be learning)?

[JennyStar]

I thought unschooling was pretty much generally accepted as the process of homeschooling without a curriculum so that children could have a more open and organic form of learning that was guided by any mandated subject material or government guidelines... i thought radical unschooling would be defined pretty much as taking that even further and doing one's utmost to not do the things which you have listed here under any circumstances unless absolutely necessary.

Yes, unschooling is about not having school or curriculum, keeping natural curiousity alive. BUT once you start to question why, that extends to all aspects of life.

If you question why a 5 yr old needs to be taught to read or write or do anything of that nature, it might follow that you question why that same 5 yr old must go to bed at 8pm sharp every night. If a child is tired and has a comfy and relaxing place to sleep when they get tired, then it's one step in helping a child learn more about their own body and how it works.

If that same child wants to watch TV, because they are curious and interested, then helping them follow that curiousity and interest is one step in the direction of keeping curiousity alive. Kids are naturally curious. They naturally want to learn about everything around them. Unless an adult in their life puts up barriers, they will continue to be naturally curious through to adulthood.

i know, i am abhorrent in most of the members' minds, and yet, here i am, basically square in the middle between regular old unschooling (which by 99% of parents in america is already considered quite radical) and radical unschooling and yet i am not even worth addressing on this all-too-holier-thou-forum...

See, this is what keeps irritating me... the self deprication/slash looking for pats on the back. Knock it off, really! I can only speak for myself here, but I never once considered you abhorrent, just a guy looking for tools to be a better parent. A bit defensive, yes, a bit reactionary, yes, but not evil. The name calling is weird. You are doing it to yourself and to others.

well thank goodness for people like Rachael, who get where i'm at and aren't so busy defending themselves and propping themselves up that they can't be bothered to address my concerns...

Here's something to ask of yourself... How long has Rachael been unschooling? How old are her kids? What has she said to you that will help you move in the direction of unschooling better and easier? There are many many people with many many different voices to pick and choose from. Choose the ones that you get the most out of, the ones that help you in the direction you want to go, which you've already said, is radical unschooling.

[Rachael S]

I agree, Alan. If, as in the hypothetical situation you presented, someone came along and said that radical unschoolers are crazy, over and over, day after day, that would not be within reason. And, yes, no one has been directly asked to stop questioning, although being called a troll, confused, and presumptuous in reference to one's line of inquiry, and having one's evolving, well intentioned parenting paradigm compared to slavery in the name of "helpful" analogy, can be construed as an indirect request by some.
The "more experienced" unschoolers who try to help those who want to understand their rules for radical unschooling are clearly well intentioned. I don't believe this has been disputed. The fact that radical unschooling is so apparently bound by such complicated rules, to the point that these rules are in need of translation to the masses through those lifted up as being more experienced among us reeks of the fundamentalist mind set that it purports to separate itself from. I find this curious, and I'm grateful that this opinion will continued to be welcome and respected.