LIMITS, RULES, FORCING

[Jacob Seligmann]

can anyone be brutally honest here?
can you please share some things that might not be so popular on this site?
i really, really, want to know
how unschoolers limit their children.
i want to know when things don't go the unschooling way...
when things get out of hand and controls are utilized and rules enforced
i am truly deeply curious about this because it represents a boundary
of lawlessness... like, where does the limitlessness break down
so to be specific, i'll ask some questions and i would greatly appreciate
anyone answering any of them, and i'd really like to hear from the people who
consider themselves dedicated radical unschoolers,

1) Does anyone have any rules? I'm especially interested in what people do about brushing teeth. Like in our house, there's a basic rule... the kids must brush their teeth in the morning and night. So far, i'm doing the brushing. But if my 4 year old whines about it and tries to get away, i explain why we brush, what cavities are, and if necessary, i show her my fillings. Now of course i can hear someone saying that i am operating out of fear and imposing my own fear based philosophy on my children. As far as i'm concerned i'm acting out of reality and imposing a strictly scientific rule to avoid tooth decay and painful dental procedures (that cost a lot of money too) This would be a great one for people to respond to. Anyone not force brushing? Anyone who does? Why? How? Explanation? Details... stories? I'd love to hear...

2) What limits can you think of that you impose on your children? What limits did you used to impose but worked through and stopped imposing? What limits did you consider and try to avoid but ended up sticking with? Limits about tv? bedtime? wake time? phone time? money spending? money making (anyone use chores for payment? anyone pay their children for anything? give allowance?) any limits on buying things? on food? on language? on books? on sexual content or discussion or sex in the house? anything you can think of would be helpful as a study in how to define limits and radical unschooling for me, and i'm sure for others too...

3)what are your doubts, if any, about the path you've chosen and the decisions you've made? Any experiences that have shown you that you've made the wrong decision? Any radical changes because of experiences? Anything you wish you would have done earlier, or not done? Any area of the freedoms you've offered your children that you think differently of now, or that you've curtailed? anyone see any problems coming from certain freedoms?

4) and also... when have you lost it? have you ever just had enough? has pushing the envelope on limitlessness ever become too much? have you ever raised your voice? physically removed a child from a situation because of acting out of control? become angry? gotten really frustrated? felt justified in the anger? felt taken advantage of? felt like radical unschooling was all a big mistake?

i hope someone can answer some of these questions... i'm not looking to punch holes in the argument for unschooling but i think it would be helpful to have a clear and brutally honest picture of how radical notions can stir up radical responses or just helping to see where the challenges lie... i hope they are helpful for others too to consider... i love this forum and am thankful for all the replies. thanks... and of course, if anyone has anything to add to this i'd love to read... i'm just trying to get a overhead view of what limits might look like in radical unschooling... where are they? what are they... why? how?

looking forward...

jacob

[Alex Polikowsky]

Calling Bob the Builder and Thomas the Tank Engine crap is very offensive to me.
My son loved those shows so much when he was young. His little life revolved around Bob, Thomas and Friends. He was writting Thomas names with magnetic letters when he was not even 3 years old.
He got so much joy and learned so much from them.
Crap?
No at all.
I still can sing lots fo the songs from both shows.

[Sarah Dickinson]

" I think lots of good stuff has come out of it and benefited others."

Yes, it has sparked a lot of thinking in me for one.

Sarah

[Sandra Dodd]

Joyce is right. Over the years when we would argue spanking, or TV, or chores, it sometimes happened that the original questioner would insult us all and leave in a huff.

Nearly every time, though someone wrote or said, in quotable words, that she had changed because of the discussion, and even though she had been too shy to write anything, or even though she had thought we were wrong and the other person was right, something in the discussion made a difference for her and she stopped spanking, stopped punishing, stopped trying to "force," stopped arbitrarily limiting.

I'm fairly certain there were others who changed but didn't write a public testimonial or a private thank you note about it.

[Sandra Dodd]

DOH! Too late to fix it, but I'm sure I meant "sensible" here and fumbled the fingers:

That sounds sensivel, and yet many people continue to look at and collect and wallow in negativity.

[JennyStar]

doesn't anyone else on here get a bit - you know - tired of talking so in depth and being all intentional all the time and jsut wanna switch off for a bit?

Actually, never! Really! I LOVE reading and talking about unschooling and dissecting and turning things over and reading other people's takes on things!

Every once in a while I can't respond to a post right away, either because other life things are happening, or because I can't articulate yet what it is I want to say. I learned a long time ago, that if I feel defensive about a post, that someone else has written, that the best thing for me to do is to walk away and think about it before I respond, IF I respond at all.

I don't want to write defensively, or write from that position of being in reactionary mode. If I catch myself doing it, I stop writing, or rewrite what I've written. Writing in unschooling forums has been one of the very best writing excercises for me. It's helped me be more articulate AND write about what I'm passionate about!

I seriously could sit at the computer ALL day and read and write about all things unschooling and all things connected to unschooling in all kinds of ways! I don't usually, well actually never, get to do that all day! Which is probably a good thing, since, if I never went and did things with my kids, I'd have nothing to bring to the conversation ; )

I'm passionate about being with my kids, just as much as I'm passionate about writing about being with my kids! It's ALL good stuff!

[Jacob Seligmann]

whoa! good for you! keeping it real!
But... that sucks!
so... first of all.. i don't think you meant everything you wrote
you're frustrated
of course you must have times where being a parent is great
and you do feel warm and fuzzy
just not today, or maybe not most of the time
but they are there...
otherwise you'd really be out of there...

listen
i can totally relate
it's tough
and going down this road is even tougher
because you don't get to just say "right. that's enough! do as you're told
or you're in your room for the rest of the night damn it!""
like our parents did!
but that's why you're here
so you're doing the right thing

i've been talking a lot about buddhism on this forum
because the similarities between buddhism and RU
are striking to me
and i practice buddhist mediation

do you?
have you ever meditated?
i can't recommend it enough
especially in this situation
i can't really see how anyone can do this
without a daily practice of meditation
and yoga! we need all the energy we can get...
and that's no joke... one of my main focuses in life
right now is retaining and gaining more energy...
it is essential to keep up this very difficult work!

also, check out this great site
very weird active meditations
but very rewarding and energizing and cathatric:

http://activemeditation.com/ActiveMeditations/FiveStages.html

[Lyla]

>> I have no intention of introducing a curriculum, but I force my girls to brush their teeth and I don't allow tv in the daytime and only at night after earning fake money units in the house by cleaning up messes that i would otherwise have to clean up which they've made...>>

i just posted on a different list (not an unschooling list) in response to a thread in which a bunch of parents were extolling the virtues of poker chip and ticket reward systems with their (right brained, homeschooled) kids. i never imagined this'd become an issue on a radical unschooling list, but here is what is said, as i think it applies to this discussion as well -and only one person there was talking about payment for eating, getting dressed, tooth brushing - it was mostly about chores and other "responsibilities"

as the fairly recently unschooling (1.5 years) parent of a 10.5 and a 14 year old, i have a lot more to say about the negative impacts of more traditional (yet still quite "radical") approaches to chores, tasks, food, sleep, and relationships in a family in general. i have BEEN on both sides (athough never in the rewards and incentives camp) and have seen first hand where we were headed with that approach and how things have improved since abandoning it. the concepts discussed here, and on sandra's site, etc. have made a HUGE impact on our family and my relationship with both my kids.

i can't post more right now, but will try later this weekend when i get back from an overnight with my teen daughter and her best friend - just the three of us in a rented house on the coast, watching movies and hanging out. she wants me INVOLVED in that, not just as a chaperone/driver, and that is *entirely* due to the changes we've made in the last couple of years.

here's the post i made on that other list:

has anyone thought about how being "paid" with rewards for eating meals, getting dressed, and even performing "chores" translates in a child's mind in terms of what those activities then MEAN to a child. if a child needs to be paid to eat - a basic bodily function - that sends a message that eating must be inherently unpleasant and one cannot be trusted to actually KNOW when one is hungry....

*please* reconsider these manipulative systems of control.

there is huge body of literature about the detrimental impacts of rewards and punishments on children - even on adults! people of all ages actually "perform" LESS well when offered incentives than when they are performing purely for intrinsic motivational purposes, not to mention the rupture in relationship that happens with manipulation. our kids are not dogs, nor clay to be molded - they are complex, individual humans. obedience in and of itself as a goal for our kids harbors so many hidden and not so hidden risks. please consider helping kids learn to do "the right thing" just because it's the right thing, and because kids are innately social, wanting to belong and contribute to a family in a meaningful way - even if it doesn't look the way WE imagine. by manipulating kids to do our bidding, we are teaching them, through MODELLING, to be manipulative. is that really what we want to be teaching (what we want our kids to be learning)?

[Kim Zerbe]

It won't help you to move in the direction of peaceful parenting to have thoughts in your head about how other parents have also messed up. It could give one a false sense of support. Knowing that you are not the only one who messes up from time to time might seem conforting at first, like you are not alone.

If you know there are others out there (because you've asked them to share their stories) and fill your head with images of them and how they messed up, it will only make it seem OK when you mess up.

But it won't help you stay on the RU path or even learn how to do RU better! You might want to let go of that idea.

This may sound strange to a newbie to RU (as I was myself about a year ago), but what helps me immensely is to carry around in my head happy images of what other parents are doing that is working to promote a happy peaceful life with their children. It helps to know others in person (attend a conference if you can) and SEE how they treat their children, even how they handle conflicts in a gentle, respectful way. I want to be around more of that!

If your head is filled with ways to be more peaceful, say YES more, let go of controls, and respect your child's choices more, you will find yourself doing those things! The power of positive thinking — it really works!

[Ren]

Hey Jacob,

I have also thought long and hard about the philisophical similarities between buddhism and unschooling. In fact, one of my talks is titled "The zen of unschooling" for that very reason.

I'm not one to meditate in the traditional buddhist manner very often. My kids and the dirt and my plants are my practice.:)

[Frank Maier]

Where's your new, beardless photo, Bob?