questions... fears...

[Linda]

All this is very new to us and we are very confused.

Where do you draw the line between what THEY choose and what WE choose? Apart from life-threatening situations, when do we have the "right", as unschooling parents, to say "no"?

[Joyce Fetteroll]

You always have the right to say no. You in fact have a legal obligation to say no when your kids are breaking the law since parents can be held accountable for their kids actions in some cases.

"Say yes more" isn't a rule. It's a way towards being a child's partner, to be a person the child trusts to help them.

It's easier to explain if you give examples. I'll give a generalized answer, but do be aware that it doesn't apply to right-now dangerous situations. Kids do want us to keep them safe! It does, though, apply to things a parent may fear are dangerous in the long term (but I'm thinking Twinkies and TV rather than eating a crystal of Drano each day ;-)

For requests that your initial reaction is "No," to or that seem like too much trouble, too expensive, the answer is to stop and think about it. The goal isn't to say yes. The goal is to be someone your children know they can go to for help when they have a problem they can't solve on their own. The goal is for your children to feel you're their support system. What can help in making that mental shift is, realizing if a child knows the answer is no and it's something they really want, they won't just give up. They will feel they need to go it alone. And they will do it in ways that are probably unsafe.

When you think about it, isn't that what we want for our kids? Do we want them, as adults, to ask someone for help and if they're told no to give up? Wouldn't we want them to press on? Preserver?

So the process is to stop and think. How can this be done safely and in a way that's respectful of others? That's when you bring out your value tools. By using values as part of a solution, being respectful of others as an example, becomes part of a good thing rather than an annoying barrier of "No, you can't, you'll bother people."

If it can't be made safe and respectful (and kind and so forth) -- like kids want to run in the parking lot or in the store when it's busy -- look for the underlying need. What can you substitute for the unworkable solution they've chosen for their underlying need? Like a trip to the park right after the store. (And the solution you're ideally working towards is proactive problem solving: anticipating their needs and building a solution in. For instance if you've planned a day of errands that you know makes them cranky, make part of the day a trip to the park, getting an ice cream, a stop at Goodwill for some ultra low cost benefits to being dragged about all day.)

If it's something expensive -- though "costs too much" is a huge topic when the main goal is being generous and supportive and there are threads here that dig into it more deeply than can be done in a paragraph! -- it can be put on a wish list, and creative ways found to work towards it.

So the question isn't "Where do I draw the line", but "How can I be the one they trust to find a way to meet their needs?"

Does that help?

[Sandra Dodd]

It's the classic newbie error of going to an opposite position, rather than stepping gradually toward the middle.

These will help:
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/balance
http://sandradodd.com/nest

Just as detractors say "if the parents aren't running the house, the the kids are running the house," some new unschoolers seem to think so too, and so they create that situation and outsiders see it and say "unschooling sucks." And when the parents have put the children "in charge," it isn't unschooling. It's just chaos.

Unschooling needs to be about learning, first and foremost. That can and will lead to all kinds of new ways of seeing everyday things. But put the creation of a learning environment FIRST and the other things will fall into place sensibly.

If a parent says "no bedtimes and eat whatever you want" without having any idea what that has to do with learning, learning is never the next thing that happens.

-=-Where do you draw the line between what THEY choose and what WE choose?-=-

This is a picture of antagonism, not of partnership.
http://sandradodd.com/partners

-=-Apart from life-threatening situations, when do we have the "right", as unschooling parents, to say "no"?-=-

Unschooling isn't about rules, it's about principles. It's about making choices based on beliefs. As the older and more experienced member of the team of two (when considering a parent and child) why would you not guide/coach/advise toward something good and fun and sensible?

http://sandradodd.com/rules

[Meredith]

Here's something that helped me shift perspective, back when I was still wrapping my mind around unschooling. It helped me to sort of "red flag" the word "rights" in my mind, and stop when I found myself thinking about my relationship with my kids in terms of "who has the right...?" and change the question. Instead of rights, think about gifts and opportunites. Instead of "right to say no" when do you get to give the gift of yes? How clever can you be about finding new ideas, out-of-the-box solutions that let you get to be your kids ally, rather than their adversary? Instead of "drawing the line" when do you get to find - or build! - common ground and connection? When can you stop and see the world through the eyes of your child and give the gift of compassion and support?

It helped me to think about the starry eyed reasons I wanted children, too. I wanted to see that child's eye view, and yet I'd resist when my kids saw beauty in things I didn't value. I wanted to see uninhibited joy, yet I'd resist with "too loud, calm down, too fast, watch out, be careful!" There are a million limits in life. I've watched my kids cry over rain and sunsets, over the moon being too far away to touch and yesterday being over. I have an opportunity to help my kids navigate around and through some of those limits, to see the world as full of possibilities, and that's a wonderful thing. It enriches my own life enormously.

[Linda]

Joyce, yes it does help :), thank you. But I still have some more questions:


- "Say yes more" isn't a rule. It's a way towards being a child's partner, to be a person the child trusts to help them."

Ok, I understand that, and we have always tried our best and made many efforts to say "yes" as much as possible. We trust that they know what they need or at least what they need to try out, and we struggle to make it possible for them.


"So the question isn't "Where do I draw the line", but "How can I be the one they trust to find a way to meet their needs?"

I guess I didn't explain myself very well. I wanted it to be a general question. I don't mean I need some rules in my head such as "we decide this, they decide that". We always want them to decide, as long as we don't feel the situation can be harmful. But, aren't there situations that can possibly be very harmful and they might not realize it at a first glance? Or even at a second glance or after years of going through it? I liked school and I thought it was so good (and even necessary) for me and I obviously didn't realize how much harm it was doing me. Now I look back and it makes me feel sad that my parents didn't "save" me from it. Can't kids be drawn to something that can be very negative for them? What about being with certain people that can do them a lot of harm? It's our responsibility to protect them but, when is it ok to say "no"? I'm talking about young kids, which is obviously different than older ones.


"It's the classic newbie error of going to an opposite position, rather than stepping gradually toward the middle."

We aren't going to an opposite direction because we have never been at the other end. We are learning a lot about radical unschooling but have always been respectful with our kids and let them make their choices. Our kids aren't wild and they are not running the house. We have always said "no" when we found it necessary and we continue to do so.


"-=-Where do you draw the line between what THEY choose and what WE choose?-=-This is a picture of antagonism, not of partnership."

We don't NEED to choose anything in particular, or know what is "right" or "wrong" since that is different in every family. We do feel we are their partners, and we work every day on getting better. We just need ideas and advice to always move forward and never back.


"Unschooling isn't about rules, it's about principles."

We don't need a set of rules to determine what we always have the right to decide. We tend to be natural and follow our feelings and instincts. I was just thinking of several situations in which I think my kids would be "in danger" of being hurt without knowing about it. Like for example spending the summer with their grandma. I feel that would be very negative for them but, as an unschooling mother, can I say "no, I don't want you to go"?


"give the gift of yes"

I really like that. I guess creativity really is important here, to be able to find other ways to meet their needs when their exact way isn't possible.

[Meredith]

But, aren't there situations that can possibly be very harmful and they might not realize it at a first glance? Or even at a second glance or after years of going through it? I liked school and I thought it was so good (and even necessary) for me and I obviously didn't realize how much harm it was doing me.

You were told it was good for you, too, over and over. You weren't given the option of questioning it. That's not really the same as creating an environment where people are thoughtful and questioning about their world and actively looking for alternatives.

Now I look back and it makes me feel sad that my parents didn't "save" me from it.

If they'd pulled you out against your will, do you think things would have been better? I've met kids being homeschooled when they'd rather be in school, and they aren't grateful for it, don't love their lives more for it. I know one young woman, now 19, who's still bitter about those days and the opportunities she missed, denied the chance to do what she wanted.

Can't kids be drawn to something that can be very negative for them? What about being with certain people that can do them a lot of harm?

Kids instincts are amazingly good where creepy people are concerned, unless they're required to associate with creepy people regularly, relatives and teachers and older kids who make them feel uncomfortable. Kids who have the option to say "no, I don't like this" at any time have a different approach to people and situations.

I was just thinking of several situations in which I think my kids would be "in danger" of being hurt without knowing about it. Like for example spending the summer with their grandma. I feel that would be very negative for them but, as an unschooling mother, can I say "no, I don't want you to go"?

Try not to turn it into a battle of ultimatums! Don't make it: "banish them to grandma's tender mercies and hope for the best -vs- be the evil control-freak mom and say No" - find more options than that. I'll bet there are more. Do you have to stay at grandma's house? Does it have to be the whole summer? Will you be there to help them get their needs met? Are there specific concerns you have about grandma? Is she very controlling or something? If that's the case, it might be better to stay nearby - with a friend or other family or in a hotel - and make some day visits. Its not a terrible thing if the kids adore their granny's company! And if they know they aren't "stuck" kids are often very accomodating of other people's quirks - in a good way, I mean.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

*** I wanted it to be a general question. ***

The answer to the general question of whether there are times radical unschoolers say no is obviously yes. But it's not very illuminating! Are there times when some vegetarians might eat meat? Yes. But what does that mean? Would someone be any the wiser if they knew nothing about vegetarians? The picture they'd get from that answer is likely to be false.

So, at this point specific examples of times you think could be Nos would be more illuminating and people can lay out the thought process they'd go through in that situation.

*** But, aren't there situations that can possibly be very harmful and they might not realize it at a first glance? ***

I'd say point out the dangers or difficulties. Even better is a path around the danger if the danger is between the child and what they want. Or a substitute for whatever the child would like from the dangerous situation. Kids don't want to get hurt! If, for instance, you point out the glass on the playground as a reason to wear shoes or go around the child most likely to think screw you and walk through it is a child who has been tightly controlled! It's their way of saying "You don't know me. And I'm sick to death of you telling me what to do." (Of course, some kids are charge ahead, need to find out (rather than be told). It's better with them to explore things safely than say no.)

But there really isn't a general answer, which would imply a rule. It's all about principles.

*** Or even at a second glance or after years of going through it? ***

If something is causing someone harm and they know it, there's more going on than lack of knowledge or lack of someone else to make them stop! If making people stop harmful behavior worked, there wouldn't be any alcoholics, drug abusers, heart attack victims or people who wear black socks with sandals. Telling people no often makes them do it in secret rather than stop.

If it's something that's slowly dangerous, there's time for people to slowly absorb the pros and cons over the years and make a decision later.

But if you say no to something common in our society that lots of people are doing happily and (seemingly) heathily that your child is intrigued by, no won't protect them. It's possible, especially if they hear no often, they'll stop trusting your intelligence which will be really bad when you have some good information about sex and drinking and driving. It's possible they'll do it anyway when you're not around. It's possible they'll obey until they're on their own and then they'll go in the opposite direction like a rubber band pulled in one direction and released.

*** Now I look back and it makes me feel sad that my parents didn't "save" me from it. ***

You need to let that go. Get that wish out of your head because it isn't being fair to your parents, you or your children. People can't have acted on knowledge they didn't and couldn't have at the time! If you seemed to be enjoying school, your parents did right. Would you have wanted them to stop you from reading books if they thought that was bad for you? If they believed school was necessary, they would no more pull you out than stop feeding you.

*** Can't kids be drawn to something that can be very negative for them? What about being with certain people that can do them a lot of harm? It's our responsibility to protect them but, when is it ok to say "no"? I'm talking about young kids, which is obviously different than older ones. ***

Straw kids aren't good for discussion. Straw kids just act without reason. Real kids have reasons for what they do.

There have been stories of kids struggling with a friendship that was difficult on the child but rather than saying no, parents have used a lot of strategies. First, there's something the child is getting from that particular friendship so just saying no will make the friend seem all the more desirable. And *that's* problematical because the child is likely to ignore their feelings of discomfort to play with the child. I'd bet that the reason a mom would want to say no is because they think the child *is* oblivious to their feelings. I'd say they're fully aware but there's something in the friendship that is worth the crap. At some point the balance is likely to tip and it won't be worth it any more. And *that's* empowering for a child to make that decision.

But in the meantime, moms have arranged to be away often doing something even more fun when the problem child is likely to want to play and put a lot of effort into finding other kids to play with. Rather than taking something away, offer more of other things.

But I may have generalized too much and people are imagining scenarios I wouldn't include in the above. Real examples are much much better.

*** Like for example spending the summer with their grandma. I feel that would be very negative for them but, as an unschooling mother, can I say "no, I don't want you to go"? ***

You need to remove the "Can I?" question from your head! You're saying you don't want rules but you're asking for permission! Is that any different?

Focus on the principles. Do they want to go first! How can it be made safe? Can the situation be changed to make it better? Are there alternatives?

[Linda]

"Try not to turn it into a battle of ultimatums! Don't make it: "banish them to grandma's tender mercies and hope for the best -vs- be the evil control-freak mom and say No" - find more options than that. I'll bet there are more. Do you have to stay at grandma's house? Does it have to be the whole summer? Will you be there to help them get their needs met? Are there specific concerns you have about grandma? Is she very controlling or something? If that's the case, it might be better to stay nearby - with a friend or other family or in a hotel - and make some day visits."

I do tend to see things as ultimatums and I need to change that. It's pretty complicated because our whole family is in Spain and that's about a 17 hour flight(s), 9 hour time difference and a VERY expensive ticket. So we would really have to think things out before we made a decision like that. It hasn't come up yet but as I learn more about Radical Unschooling I start to have more questions and doubts about certain things and that's where all this came from.


"So, at this point specific examples of times you think could be Nos would be more illuminating and people can lay out the thought process they'd go through in that situation."

Ok, a specific example is having a grandma insist on us sending our son over to Spain with her for a few weeks. She lives alone, is unhappy, takes drugs and doesn't have a very... "healthy" life in general. She's the type of person who would say "let's do this but don't tell your parents about it". She has never taken very good care of her son and I doubt she would of mine. But my son can't understand all that without going through it and I don't want him to have to. But maybe I'm forgetting something very important which is that if we still have a good relationship with him (as I hope we will), he will trust us when we talk openly about the situation.


"If you seemed to be enjoying school, your parents did right. Would you have wanted them to stop you from reading books if they thought that was bad for you? If they believed school was necessary, they would no more pull you out than stop feeding you.

I became autistic in school. I suffered every single second of it. But I had to convince myself that it was fun, otherwise I would have gone crazy. My parents did stop me from reading some books too, and paid me for reading others. I told them every single day that what I learned in school wasn't necessary but it didn't change a thing. But I really don't blame them. They love me and I know they have always done the best they can. I just like to be conscious about certain things because it helps me understand everything better.


"But in the meantime, moms have arranged to be away often doing something even more fun when the problem child is likely to want to play and put a lot of effort into finding other kids to play with. Rather than taking something away, offer more of other things."

I like that idea, and that's what we tend to do, really. I have never liked just saying "no".


"You need to remove the "Can I?" question from your head! You're saying you don't want rules but you're asking for permission! Is that any different?"

When I ask "can I?" I mean as an unschooling mom. I'm really not asking for permission. We moved here from Spain a few months ago and we're new to the country, the town, the laws, the traditions, the culture... and Unschooling! It's all very exciting but also very hard. We're all by ourselves and slowly making friends and for the first time in my life I need to feel a part of something and Unschooling really feels right for us. We think we should just do what we feel in our hearts and "go with the flow (our kids' flow)" but I wanted to know if we really "fit" into the Unschooling philosophy.

[Meredith]

a specific example is having a grandma insist on us sending our son over to Spain with her for a few weeks. She lives alone, is unhappy, takes drugs and doesn't have a very... "healthy" life in general.

Is your son clamoring for this? And you can't afford the tickets for the whole family? If he's just asking about it, can you say "Yes, we Will go visit grandma at some point" or something of the kind. If he's really begging to go, just him, then treat the request seriously. Has he spent nights away from home? Some kids can't handle that at 5, so if he doesn't have an experience with doing that, it would be good to arrange some sleepovers so that you and he can get an idea what its like. Are there things grandma will expect of him that you typically don't? Then it would be a good idea if he learned those before he went to visit all by himself - it would horribly unkind to stick him in a situation where he feels totally inept and out of his element without someone he trusts to fall back on. A "yes" that sets a child up to fail is cruel.

That might mean he's not ready to go visit grandma by himself - maybe not for years! My 8yo isn't ready to go visit her kind, warm, cuddly grandma who adores little girls and knows how to be sweet to an outrageous, energetic, strong willed child who's a conservative eater (having had two of her own). Kids sometimes want to do things they aren't yet ready for - read, ride a bike, stay overnight with a friend. But you can give them parts of what they want, look for ways to meet the underlying needs. You can tell stories and show pictures of Spain, correspond with grandma, and have other adventures. See the underlying needs of connection and fun and exploration and find ways to fill those without there being a sole "right answer".

[Linda]

No, he hasn't asked about it at all and I don't really think he will until she suggests it. And he hasn't ever spent nights away from home.

I guess there are really many options and we just have to pick the one that suits us best depending on our situation.

Thanks!