RU with a large family?? Questions.

[Kerry M.]

Hello,

Well, I am still here reading and learning about the RU philosophy. I have been really trying to incorporate this all into my life. I have to be honest though, its been a really huge struggle. My kids fight constantly and nobody feels like they need to help out with things in the home and at the farm(chores-dairy farm). I find myself yelling alot and saying things I later regret. How do any of you on here deal with a bigger family(we have 7 kids ages 13,13,13,11,10,4&5). How can a person meet everyones needs peacefully?

I am also wondering if anyone on here runs an at home business or a farm that requires many people to help out? Maybe Alex you could chime in here on this? I often wonder what I should expect from my kids in terms of chore help outside(milking, calf feeding ect..)there are times they argue about it and dont feel like they should have to do it. My husband is more on the "everyone needs to help because they all live here and eat here spectrum". He was always expected to help out at home and his father was very strict. How do you get over that? in terms of RU'ing what is the best way to approach it w/out always yelling at people to get going?

I am just looking for some honest ideas on this. I am really worried ,and feel like for all the time I have spent researching unschooling, and all the books and websites I have read over the last 9 months I still havent really moved ahead much. The deschooling thing has been a real struggle as well, it is so hard to not make my kids do some sort of curriculum! I worry about everything, most importantly the future. I wonder if I'm creative enough to unschool and more importantly I wonder if I will have prepared my kids for the future. I guess all in all, I still havent really even truly begun our deschooling process. Sigh. Any ideas here?

Kerry~(worried mom in Minnesota).

[Alex Polikowsky]

Hey Kerry,
Good to hear from you again.
My kids are younger. MD turned 7 last Summer and Gigi just turned 4.
Gigi loves to do chores and be out with dad. Right now its just too cold for her and her hands get really cold no matter what so we keep her in. She goes out when its over 3o degrees and no wind.
This past Summer MD helped every afternoon feeding calfs and heifers and washing pails ( his favorite) and they both love riding the skid loader with Dad.
To tell you the truth it takes longer to do chores when Gigi wants to help and do it herself.
We do not require them do do chores but they like it . Its time spent with dad having fun. Sometimes Brian plays games or pretend scenarios when MD is outside and he loves it.
Right now MD is not helping out as its not fun to be out in the cold and really would make chores slower.
Do you still have those links for the blogs for Laura and Melissa. They do have 9 and 8 respectivaly and unschool. I have met both at a COnference and they are really nice.
The other suggestion I have is to get Sandra Dodd's Big Book of Unschooling.
Its full of short chapters that you husband may be able to read and get a different perspective out of it.
I do know exactly how Dairy farmers think about chores and "work ethics". I am so glad my husband had met and really like a couple of wonderful unschooling dads and he is very supportive of unschooling.
he is also seeing how MD works very hard at his basketball practices and while doing his chores and how he is not lazy or just does it to get it done. MD was very meticulous about his chores. He never did anything "halfassed".
He will wrok hours playing basketball to get some new skill or improve.
We never made him do it or told him he needed to.
If he does not feel like doing something we are OK with it.
He has not been forced to do chores or practice.
I say that because I know how they think that if kids don't get pushed they won't do it or be lazy. That is not true for us at all.
I do model helping dad when he asks without complaining and because we love him and want to help. I do it jouyfully and have fun with the kids playing in the barn and the farm.
Have you joined the AlwaysLearning or UnschoolingBasics yahoo groups?
Those are great groups with lots of great ideas and advice.
There are some other groups online but they are not really helpful to get you over difficulties and to move fast towards unschooling. You 3 older kids are alreday 13! Time passes fast.
Too fast not to have urgency!
Regards,
Alex
PS you still need to come visit! I am planning a get together some time this month or next and I will let you know!

[Ben]

Kerry M said:

I am also wondering if anyone on here runs an at home business or a farm that requires many people to help out?

Are they your children or are they your employees? Did they ask to come work on your farm in return for compensation (Room and board), or were they conceived without any say in the matter and brought into an environment that you and your partner chose for yourselves?

Do you see the difference?

If your business can't function without a helper, you need to hire a real employee, not force your kids to work for what, by the way, would not qualify as minimum wage if they were in fact adult employees.

Is it really fair to expect your kids to help out with something that isn't of their own choosing? Yes, they're part of your family, but again, you are the one who chose to conceive them, or at least engage in the act which lead to that conception, they didn't have any say in whether they were going to be born, who their parents were going to be, or what kind of environment they were going to be brought up in.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

*** Is it really fair to expect your kids to help out with something that isn't of their own choosing? ***

From the parents' point of view it isn't fair that they're doing all the work while the kids play.

So, while true, it might help to think in terms of relationships rather than fairness.

While it's certainly common for parents, especially farming and other businesses that are part of the family, for parents to make their kids contribute, it's also typical for kids whose parents put imposed obligations ahead of relationships to flee home as soon as they can. While kids' labor might contribute some to a farm, parents are basically making permanent withdrawals from the relationship account they have with each child for tasks that are temporary. (And to pay back even a portion of that withdrawal, a parent has to return even more than they took! So, to mitigate some of the bad effects of daily force, a parent needs to spend time to do something extra special for each of the kids *if* they want to rebuild what was taken from the relationship.)

In 20 years, looking back what will be more important? That the now adult kids enjoy your company or that each child did today's chores?

I'm not saying that forcing chores on kids will destroy relationships but force *does* make withdrawals. The more the kids feel like they were created for free labor, the bigger the withdrawal. (And it doesn't matter if the parent feels differently. The child can only react to what the actions feel like to them, not to the parents' intent.)

A few people are good at creating an atmosphere of "We're all in this together so let's all pitch in." But that's an extra skill. It doesn't come automatically from forcing chores on kids.

Even better for building relationships -- and creating kids who *want* to help and will put in real effort instead of minimum required -- is to invite them along. Do it for company. Do it to do something together. Make the time enjoyable. (And if the chores feel like chores, that's a good thing to examine! And good to find a way to enjoy the chores. Who wants to help someone who is forcing themselves repeatedly to do something they don't enjoy?)

Let them say no thanks. (If they've been forced it will take a while for them to "catch up" on their nos. One allowed no doesn't make up for years of no nos allowed! ;-) Treat them as you would a friend you've asked to interrupt their busy life to help you with something, even if it's not up to the standards you wished. Treat their time as valuable and recognize that you're imposing on them.

Not because that's the "right" way to look at things but because that's the relationship building way to view someone's help. No friend wants to help another who exploits their friendship for cheap labor. And that feeling of being treated like an object to serve someone else's needs applies not just to friends but to spouses, children, co-workers. Anyone you'd want to maintain a good relationship with.

Parents are often clueless to how great that feeling of spending one on one time with an adult who enjoys being with you doing something real can be. Parents squander that and just use pressure which -- even with adults -- causes people to flee in the other direction.

I bet Alex's kids help because their father is appreciative of any help they give and makes the time spent with him enjoyable. It has nothing to do with the chores and everything to do with the relationship. Right now he may not get as much help as he'd like, but he's building future help *as a side effect* of his relationship. I'd bet good money that by the time they're able to be of real help (teens) that he'll be able to ask and they'll say yes and give him real heartfelt help to help *him* rather than complete a chore to get out of there. It's what happened with my daughter and what others have found by putting the relationship first.

[jerritt]

As someone who was raised on a farm, I get the need for help. I do. And I also understand that being able to afford hired help is rarely an option for farmers.

However, that said, the times that I was MOST willing to help, and in the best mood while helping, was when I was included in major decision making about something that was happening, or when I was "allowed" to do something that was normally a task reserved for my parents. Maybe asking the kids if they want to learn how to do something that previously was reserved for adults, or including them on a major decision that will then lead them to having a roll in carrying out the action.

And yes, I loved it when I got to do things with my parents. Shearing day, when we all worked together, or even worming day, when all the sheep (we raised sheep and cattle, but my mom was raised on a dairy farm, so I get it) had to be run through the facility and wormed, or when I got sent out on the horse to round up the cows all by myself. Those were cool, because I got responsibility and independence and I learned a lot of self-reliance by doing it.

I am wondering if there is away to incorporate some of these things into what might normally be monotonous daily chores to make them fun or a time to really acquire more independence on their part? And the flip side of that is that you are going to have to be okay with them sometimes saying, no thanks. It's hard. I struggle with it with my 4, and we don't farm right now, so I understand that that amps up the "need" even higher on your part, but the freedom to chose on their part is worth it, and in the end I think will lead them to wanting to take a larger role.

[Kerry M.]

Hi Jerrit,

I really appreciate that thoughful response. If you havent lived on a farm you have no idea what is all involved. We do try to give our kids say in things and we dont always make them do just one job. They have time to do other things and be away from the farm during chore times. My oldest son helps with fieldwork and is sooo good running equipment, he loves that part and has become very good at it. He runs most larger pieces of equipment better then my older FIL. We try to find things each of them are good at and like doing. Early mornings are still harder though, getting up is hard! My husband couldnt technically do all of the work alone, we milk over 100 cows and have young stock that needs to be taken care of daily. He would be hard pressed to get it all done 100% alone. His mornings start at 3:00AM.

I just wanted to comment that your post was helpful ,as was Joyce's comments. They were easier to digest. My children arent slaves, like one person who commented on here thinks they are. Obviously you have never lived a farm life! just because I give birth to someone doesnt mean they dont have to help while living with us. I am just looking for ideas on how to make it easier in context of an unschooling life.

jerritt said:

As someone who was raised on a farm, I get the need for help. I do. And I also understand that being able to afford hired help is rarely an option for farmers.

However, that said, the times that I was MOST willing to help, and in the best mood while helping, was when I was included in major decision making about something that was happening, or when I was "allowed" to do something that was normally a task reserved for my parents. Maybe asking the kids if they want to learn how to do something that previously was reserved for adults, or including them on a major decision that will then lead them to having a roll in carrying out the action.

And yes, I loved it when I got to do things with my parents. Shearing day, when we all worked together, or even worming day, when all the sheep (we raised sheep and cattle, but my mom was raised on a dairy farm, so I get it) had to be run through the facility and wormed, or when I got sent out on the horse to round up the cows all by myself. Those were cool, because I got responsibility and independence and I learned a lot of self-reliance by doing it.

I am wondering if there is away to incorporate some of these things into what might normally be monotonous daily chores to make them fun or a time to really acquire more independence on their part? And the flip side of that is that you are going to have to be okay with them sometimes saying, no thanks. It's hard. I struggle with it with my 4, and we don't farm right now, so I understand that that amps up the "need" even higher on your part, but the freedom to chose on their part is worth it, and in the end I think will lead them to wanting to take a larger role.

[Ben]

I never said you were treating your children like slaves, and I'm sorry if you read it that way. However, you still need to consider that you don't *have* to live on a farm. You chose to do so. Your children didn't get to make that choice.

Joyce and Jerritt both said things I intended more clearly than I might have done, but I still think it's important to consider that central fact.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

*** My children arent slaves, like one person who commented on here thinks they are. Obviously you have never lived a farm life! just because I give birth to someone doesnt mean they dont have to help while living with us. I am just looking for ideas on how to make it easier in context of an unschooling life. ***

Obviously there aren't that many radical unschoolers with large farms so it isn't likely you'll get plug and play solutions ;-) But we can help you step back from the situation and see the dynamics and how principles can work. For instance, this:

*** just because I give birth to someone doesnt mean they dont have to help while living with us. ***

while a perfectly understandable point of view and one most parents would agree with, it sets up an adversarial relationship between parents and kids. In a struggle, one needs to win and the other lose. But the other side obviously doesn't want to lose so they're going to resist!

What will help most is attitude and outlook. If a parent approaches a child with an attitude that would cause friends to avoid the parent, it will create similar feelings of resentment and distancing in kids. So what Bob meant isn't that you treat them like slaves, but it's possible that you're approach may unintentionally make them feel like conscripted labor. And, even if you don't intend to treat them that way, even if your intentions are to be kind, if your actions *feel* like you're treating them as slaves, your intent means nothing. They can only react to how your actions make them feel.

Let's see if I can come up with an analogy that helps. If someone joins a small congregation with a church building that requires a fair amount of work, if the minister approaches a new member with the attitude of "Just because you've come to worship here, doesn't mean you don't have to help," he'll likely drive off anyone who might want to help! His position is "right" but it won't help him get the help he needs. But if, instead, he shifts his perspective to *their* perspective, if he approaches new members with the understanding that they could attend church elsewhere *and* knowing that people like to feel their contribution are valued and respected, he wouldn't even need to persuade them his position. He could treat them as valued volunteers and draw them out to find their strengths and likes and dislikes to find the areas they'd like to contribute in.

I suspect -- and I'm just guessing -- that the principle of everyone working together can be treated like the principle of kindness as a tool when helping a child get what they want.

You may never have said directly to a child "just because I gave birth to you doesn't mean you don't have to help," but if you're holding that thought in your head as you're seeking solutions, it mentally draws a line. And you solutions must move the child from their side of the line to yours. But if you shift your perspective to *their* understanding so you work *with* them and their needs rather than against them, you're far more likely to get help.

As an example, if your son is screaming insults at your daughter to get her out of his space, you don't suggest she scream insults back as a solution! ;-) You'd treat kindness and respect as pretty much a given and any solutions you help them come up with will conform to kind and respectful. Kindness and respect aren't forced on them. They're tools to craft solutions with as well as ingredients in the solutions.

So instead of looking at tasks and trying to find bodies to fill them, look more towards your kids as souls who would love to be valued for making real contributions. Like you said your son loves doing the field work. And put their needs as a high priority. If one child wants to beat a level on a video game, for instance, do treat that as important and make sure he gets some time scheduled to do that. Otherwise he'll need to go it alone and fight against you for the time.

Do you thank them for helping? Individually or even as part of dinner when you're all gathered together, with specifics about how that person's contribution was important to the success. The thanks needs to come from the heart, not just a technique to get them to help! Think about the kind of thanks you appreciate when you've set aside something you'd rather do to help someone. That's sounding like business talk ;-) But you're far more likely to get help if the kids are seen as valued volunteers than as mouths who should work to repay their room and board. That second is an extreme, but if you have bits of that in your thoughts as you interact with them, the kids will feel that pull and fight against it.

That's why unschooling is so hard to grasp! It's rarely about "unschooling solutions" and almost always about shifting perspective. It isn't about handing someone solutions but helping them see in new ways so they can use the principles to come up with solutions that work in their own unique situation.

[jerritt]

I agree with Joyce, that change of perspective is the hardest part. We are still working through it. It's hard because it is COMPLETELY different than anything you've probably ever considered, but once you get it, it's like a pop and it makes sense. Of course, it's not one *pop*, it's lots of them that will eventually shift the way you see the world and your kids and the whole 9 yards, but it's worth it, I promise. And we're here on your journey.

[Alex Polikowsky]

http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/ This one is Melissa's Blog she has 8 kids.


http://theriesenbergs.blogspot.com/ This one is Laura's she has 9 kids.

Hope it helps! I only have two!

( If anyone was at the Kalahari Unshcooling Conference ( UWWG) last week Laura was there!

Alex

greenlee said:

Does anyone have links for the blogs of a Laura or Melissa mentioned? I have seven children & would be interested in reading those blogs.

[Alex Polikowsky]

Oh and their blogs are great! They are always busy doing fun stuff! Very Inspiring!

[Kerry M.]

Hi Alex,

Thanks for all the information. I will check them out again as well! I would have loved to attend that waterpark gathering but there justwasn't time for it this time around!