Should Unschooled kids do chores?

[Louise Gibson]

I have read many many books on unschooling, and the chore issue.

Today I am feeling that YES, absolutely the kids should do chores around the house.

As an OT, I know the importance of teaching kids funtional skills, and having looked at the kids bedroom today, chores are in order!!!

I think they should know how to keep a place at least semi tidy and clean, specially when you can end up having an ant invasion, attract mice, and encourage nasty little spiders to move in.

I don't feel ok with having to constantly pick up after the kids, when they themselves feel much better in an uncluttered environment.  I do not think that it is ever too early for them to learn how to respect their belongings, and to relieve their own frustration by actually knowing where their things are.

The lesson is that there is so much more time left to do other things, if you don't have to organize and search for things first.

Having just watched the Hoarder programs the other night, and how at an early age 'things' start to become difficult to get rid of, I feel that I'd better make sure we do not end up there.

So, when I come home from work today, it will be interesting to see how much of a battle about tidying there was!!!

In the old days before compulsory schooling, people did tend to repect their belongings more, the small amount of belongings a person had in their household where treasured, and the kids took a part in looking after the household.

I do not think that shoud go by the way side just because we now live in a consumer society.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- I do not think that it is ever too early for them to learn how to respect their belongings-=-

I'm sure you do think there's a time that's too early. One year? Two? Three? And which belongings? Some you put up high, when they're little. A four year old probably won't be doing her own laundry.

-=-In the old days before compulsory schooling, people did tend to repect their belongings more, the small amount of belongings a person had in their household where treasured, and the kids took a part in looking after the household.-=-

I don't think a general statement can be made like that, except in a nostalgic way. My mother's family was really, really poor. Cotton pickers who lived in various ratty little houses without running water or electricity. They didn't HAVE "belongings" to speak of, but the kids used to play with snuff bottles and sticks and horned toads. Seriously...

Some people "before compulsory education" lived in big houses with servants and nursemaids.

-=-As an OT, I know the importance of teaching kids funtional skills,-=-

If you're still looking at "teaching" kids anything, you're not very far into unschooling. That's fine, but it's worth noting that you're still looking at your credentials and at teaching, when you write about how your children will learn things.

-=-The lesson is that there is so much more time left to do other things, if you don't have to organize and search for things first.-=-

"The lesson" about unschooling is that things can be learned without thinking of them as "lessons."

-=-Having just watched the Hoarder programs the other night, and how at an early age 'things' start to become difficult to get rid of, I feel that I'd better make sure we do not end up there.-=-

I bet many of those hoarders had parents who made them clean their rooms. :-)

[laura bowman]

*I bet many of those hoarders had parents who made them clean their rooms.*

i couldn't agree more sandra...i would also add to that "and made them get rid of things they cherished or simply just wanted to have."

[Louise Gibson]

I'm not quite sure what to make of these replies, rather negative I think.
Even unschooling kids need guidance, not all kids are created equally, and not all unschoolers are created equally.
As a new unschooler, I do not want to fall into the same trap that 'schoolers' do, and that is taking verbatim every bit of advice, 'teaching?" that the so called Unschooler experts impose. Then I'm putting myself back in the box, and allowing my own opinion to become invalid, because of the 'teaching' of others.
Kids do learn in many different ways, and there is no shame in unschooling while also guiding, teaching, whatever you want to call it, things that are important to your family and your kids, including chores.

I think that people DID respect things more in days gone by, at least that's what I hear from the elderly, but maybe they are wrong and this new breed all know better.

Oh, and the kids had GREAT fun vacuming, brushing up things, and teaching , yes they were also , teaching a couple of younger kids how to use the vacum. The kids naturally TAUGHT each other, without any adult input, except for the request to clean up the messy bedroom and another 2 rooms where thay had left loads of toys over the floor, and were in danger of breaking their leg if they slid on anything, including the banana skin.

What do you say then to a kid who is NATURALLY Teaching another kid?!!!!

It's sad that some unschooler parents are emabarassed and afraid to admit that they do put some structure into some of their day, and they feel they have to hide that from other unschoolers.

Hmmmmm, does that mean that this whole unschooling method, is imposing their own rigid values on others, and doing exactly what other systems do? Not accepting that others have great ways that might include a bit of structure?

I don't know, I just get fed up with the holier than thou attitude I've seen in some groups, with no acceptance of the broad spectrum that there should be within the whole unschooling thing.

Even Summerhill had rules. Albeit set by the kids and teachers!!!!!

Sorry if I sound angry, had a rough day.
wish there where more positive people in the world, more people who REALLY accept the things they say they accept.

I won't go into the OT side of things, except to say that yes we do TEACH the kids, but usually within the horrible school environment, so we have to be very inventive, and allow the kids for a brief time in their day to do things completely outside the box, and hey, guess what, it works.

So anyway, I'll keep posting about how the chores are going. It was so nice to come home from work, and not have to do extra stuff, cause my kids helped out, and they felt good about it.

Sandra Dodd said:

-=- I do not think that it is ever too early for them to learn how to respect their belongings-=-

I'm sure you do think there's a time that's too early. One year? Two? Three? And which belongings? Some you put up high, when they're little. A four year old probably won't be doing her own laundry.

-=-In the old days before compulsory schooling, people did tend to repect their belongings more, the small amount of belongings a person had in their household where treasured, and the kids took a part in looking after the household.-=-

I don't think a general statement can be made like that, except in a nostalgic way. My mother's family was really, really poor. Cotton pickers who lived in various ratty little houses without running water or electricity. They didn't HAVE "belongings" to speak of, but the kids used to play with snuff bottles and sticks and horned toads. Seriously...

Some people "before compulsory education" lived in big houses with servants and nursemaids.

-=-As an OT, I know the importance of teaching kids funtional skills,-=-

If you're still looking at "teaching" kids anything, you're not very far into unschooling. That's fine, but it's worth noting that you're still looking at your credentials and at teaching, when you write about how your children will learn things.

-=-The lesson is that there is so much more time left to do other things, if you don't have to organize and search for things first.-=-

"The lesson" about unschooling is that things can be learned without thinking of them as "lessons."

-=-Having just watched the Hoarder programs the other night, and how at an early age 'things' start to become difficult to get rid of, I feel that I'd better make sure we do not end up there.-=-

I bet many of those hoarders had parents who made them clean their rooms. :-)

[Joyce Fetteroll]

*** I'm not quite sure what to make of these replies, rather negative I think. ***

The responses make more sense if the message boards are seen as a help desk rather than a social network. Posts are treated as requests for help.

*** Even unschooling kids need guidance ***

But there is guidance and if you ask questions about how chores are handled and why radical unschoolers make the choices they do the discussion will go much smoother.

It's *really* hard to discuss topics when people rush in with a boat load of assumptions of what we're doing and why they need to do things differently. Please, do ask. :-) Be an investigative reporter and ask questions to find out what and why and how.

*** As a new unschooler, I do not want to fall into the same trap that 'schoolers' do, and that is taking verbatim every bit of advice, 'teaching?" that the so called Unschooler experts impose. ***

If someone wants to know what a radical unschooling approach would be to a situation, the message boards here are a good place to come to find that :-) No one is required to adopt it, but they can get a good analysis of what the goals are and why various approaches work and don't work.

This analogy might not stretch far, but in some ways the boards are like those living history communities where the people answer questions as someone from the 17th (or whatever) would answer. The difference is that we're not pretending ;-)

Another analogy is a vegetarian message board set up to help people figure out how to get what they need without meat. The purpose of the board isn't to turn people into automatons. The purpose of the board is to provide a place for people who want the style of vegetarianism the board offers. Such a board can also serve as a place to dip into for ideas but since the audience it's trying to serve are the full vegetarians, the intended audience would not appreciate the "mostly vegetarians" suggestions that incorporate meat.

The purpose of this board is to help people figure out how to not compromise the values of respect, kindness, helpfulness, joyful learning and so on when faced with the practical aspects of living a family life.

*** Then I'm putting myself back in the box, and allowing my own opinion to become invalid, because of the 'teaching' of others. ***

That's because you're assuming the goal is to be on the inside of the group and you're wanting to expand the group to be more inclusive of people with ideas outside the core ideas.

But there isn't a group. It's a help desk. It's a place to ask questions.

Because some people are committed to radical unschooling (as some are to full vegetarianism) there is a "group" here that are regular readers. But what they share in common isn't an unschooling label but an enjoyment of what the board offers.

*** Kids do learn in many different ways, and there is no shame in unschooling while also guiding, teaching, whatever you want to call it, things that are important to your family and your kids, including chores. ***

Where did you get the idea unschoolers don't guide? I'm not asking that in a snarky way. It's a question to think about. You've made assumptions about the people here based on what? Blogs? Other message boards? Unschoolers in real life?

One of the problems in your assumption is the definition and purpose of guidance. Conventional guidance looks like gentle pressure to move in the direction the parents think is best. Unschooling guidance looks more like helping kids get what they want in ways that are safe, respectful and reasonable. It looks like respect, honesty, compassion, patience put into practice in our daily dealings with our kids.

The problem with conventional approaches to parenting is that it's hugely disrespectful without parents realizing it. It causes parents to act towards their children in ways that they would never treat an adult they cared about for fear of losing their respect and friendship. It cause parents to see their kids as bad when the kids react as any grown person would to the pressure and control and disrespect they feel.

Many people make the assumption that radical unschooling is creating this fairy tale existence for kids where the parents act like servant and treat the kids like kings and queens. It makes it really hard to discuss what we do do when the answers are filtered through assumptions like that. It helps *hugely* to let go of the assumptions and really dig in and find out the nuts and bolts of how it all works and why.

*** I think that people DID respect things more in days gone by, at least that's what I hear from the elderly, but maybe they are wrong and this new breed all know better. ***

People tend to see the past through rose colored glasses so the bad parts are forgotten and the good parts are remembered.

As with many values of the past, the root of caring for possessions was practical that grew into a value. Average people didn't have a choice about how much they owned. They spent their time and money on what they needed to stay alive. Buying another dress might mean skimping on food. Waste could mean death.

So, back then caring for things was life and death. Now, it's a free choice. But if someone imposes that value on someone, then it's not a free choice. The problem is that parents often fear kids won't make the right choice if they're given free choice. They fear that when kids are younger and have different priorities, if they aren't making the right choices, then they need taught what's the right choice. The unschooling approach is to help the kids find a way to get what they want *and* make better choices. People are way more open to embracing ideas that help them get what they want than ideas that get in their way.

A parent who stops a child from wasting, is less likely to have a child who is interested in not wasting than a parent who helps a child find a way to get what they want in a less wasteful way.

*** Oh, and the kids had GREAT fun vacuming ***

Do you imagine unschooled kids who don't have chores have never experienced the fun of vacuuming? I would guess most have.

But what can suck the fun out of something really fast is requiring someone to do it. Even things that are inherently fun can become tedious if people are made to do it. If someone is conscripted every week to bake the amount of cookies someone else determines and to someone else's standards, it's far less likely they'll ever joyfully choose to make cookies.

The approach unschoolers take is to invite children to help, not require it. Everything is a lot more fun when it's done together *and* when people know they can say no thanks.

That's just a tiny glimpse of an unschooling approach to tasks about the house. But in order to see the big picture of how it all fits together and where it ends up 15 years down the road, you'll need to let go of the assumptions you have about what we're doing in order to ask questions.

A bigger window can be found by reading I want to scream! and Chores and Joyfully Rejoycing (scroll down the right side where there are several standard objections/questions around chores.)

*** What do you say then to a kid who is NATURALLY Teaching another kid?!!!! ***

Depends if the other kid has asked to be shown how to do something.

But your vision of what life looks like in a radical unschooling home is off and is making a discussion about it difficult if you don't think unschooling kids are learning from each other.

Teaching and learning are often used interchangeably out in mainstream society. But when the words are used to mean the same thing, it makes many unschooling ideas confusing.

So it helps -- when trying to understand unschooling -- to define teaching as pushing information into someone and learning as someone pulling information in. Kids are learning when they're pulling in what fascinates them. The source is irrelevant. It could be from a teacher in front of a classroom. it could be from TV. It could be a book. It could be what's happening to "that" when they do "this." It could be from mom who is answering questions.

It helps people understand unschooling when they focus on the learner more and on the source of the learning less.

*** It's sad that some unschooler parents are emabarassed and afraid to admit that they do put some structure into some of their day, and they feel they have to hide that from other unschoolers. ***

It will muddy the discussion to talk about people who aren't here. We can't talk about whether that summation accurately represents what they're doing and can't talk about why they're doing it. But if you read through the archives here, you'll see discussion of how some unschoolers structure their days and why.

*** Sorry if I sound angry, had a rough day.
wish there where more positive people in the world, more people who REALLY accept the things they say they accept. ***

Whoa. That's a huge broad brush you've just painted over a 1000 people with.

The people here are dedicated to helping those who want to implement radical unschooling ideas in their families.

Problems happen when people jump into the forum with wrong assumptions about what it is and then reprimand people here for not being what they expected. The problem isn't the lack of acceptance. The problem is the assumption this is a social group.

If someone wants help figuring out a radical unschooling approach to some sticky problem they're having, this is the place to come. If someone wants to sit back and chew the fat with people who identify with unschooling, there are social groups out there. (And I'm sure you'll be contacted off line by one or more inviting you.)

*** So anyway, I'll keep posting about how the chores are going. ***

Do be aware that all ideas are subject o analysis, to see if they are putting relationships and joyful learning and respect at the forefront.

***It was so nice to come home from work, and not have to do extra stuff, cause my kids helped out, and they felt good about it.***

Freely given gifts that we love and were unexpected *are* wonderful. :-) What takes the joy out of giving is when the gift receiver starts expecting the gift, and expects the gift to conform to certain standards.

[JennyStar]

Even unschooling kids need guidance, not all kids are created equally, and not all unschoolers are created equally.

Forced chores do not equal guidance. I don't think most unschoolers would disagree that kids need guidance. Isn't that what parents are for? Whether we have our kids in school or not, a parent's primary job is to guide their children. If the goal is to have a clean house, then naturally a parent will enforce that goal in the most direct means possible. If the goal is to have a good relationship with their children, with a clean house, then a parent will find another way to do that. Enforcing chores, when a child isn't willing, will erode away the relationship, hence the battles that will often ensue.

Clean houses can and do happen without requiring chores.

As a new unschooler, I do not want to fall into the same trap that 'schoolers' do, and that is taking verbatim every bit of advice, 'teaching?" that the so called Unschooler experts impose. Then I'm putting myself back in the box, and allowing my own opinion to become invalid, because of the 'teaching' of others.

Are you? This sounds very reactionary, swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction, listen to everyone, accept everything, or listen to no one and accept nothing. There are things that work to get successful unschooling and things that don't. Read more. This is not a new subject in the unschooling world! Look down on the right hand side of this page and read the huge amount of writing on chores.

Kids do learn in many different ways, and there is no shame in unschooling while also guiding, teaching, whatever you want to call it, things that are important to your family and your kids, including chores.

Teaching is not the same thing at all as learning. It isn't "whatever you want to call it". People have been passionately writing about unschooling for years and making distinctions between teaching and learning to help people understand unschooling. To dismiss that within an unschooling discussion is a bit like spitting in the wind.

People learn naturally unless and until someone steps in and starts to teach and the person isn't a willing participant. Teachers do have a place in the world however. If a person is there by choice and accepting the role of being a student, then natural learning can happen still.

I think that people DID respect things more in days gone by, at least that's what I hear from the elderly, but maybe they are wrong and this new breed all know better.

That may be so. Regardless of whether or not that's true, I'm more concerned with respecting people over things. We have a lot of things and like pennies, people DO throw them away. You don't have to agree with that philosophy, but it does happen. No amount of forcing a child to respect a penny will give it any more value than what it has. The same can be applied to toys and cleanliness, a parent can't force a child to hold a different perceived value of those things than the value that a child already has.

Oh, and the kids had GREAT fun vacuming, brushing up things, and teaching , yes they were also , teaching a couple of younger kids how to use the vacum. The kids naturally TAUGHT each other, without any adult input, except for the request to clean up the messy bedroom and another 2 rooms where thay had left loads of toys over the floor, and were in danger of breaking their leg if they slid on anything, including the banana skin.

You could completely rephrase that. Cleaning can be fun. Did the kids actually "teach" each other how to use the vacuum or did they show them, or demonstrate? I never once had any lessons on how to use the vacuum, but I've shown my kids how to use it. This IS largely what unschooling is about, living and doing and helping kids do things too by showing them how to do things they don't know how to do.

What do you say then to a kid who is NATURALLY Teaching another kid?!!!!

People naturally show each other things. That is how natural learning can happen.

It's sad that some unschooler parents are emabarassed and afraid to admit that they do put some structure into some of their day, and they feel they have to hide that from other unschoolers.

Again, structure is different than enforcing chores. There can be a natural ebb and flow to people's lives and it can often look very structured. Enforcing structure can cause problems if the participants aren't willing. Perhaps your kids are easy going and willing to go along with whatever you impose on them. Lots of little kids do. For those that don't have kids that would do that, you already know why this imposition is not a good thing.

Here's the thing, those little kids won't stay little forever and one day may question your control and imposition. What then will you do? Lots of parents continue onward, imposing more control, upping the anty. What gets lost in that is the relationship. I've seen it happen and I've seen an alternative. If you never start in the first place, you never get to the place where you start to lose in the face of a teenager. If the focus is on relationship from the beginning you can continue having one when you have a teenager. Once a child is big enough and old enough to have their own say, they will either share it with you or keep it from you.

Hmmmmm, does that mean that this whole unschooling method, is imposing their own rigid values on others, and doing exactly what other systems do? Not accepting that others have great ways that might include a bit of structure?

Are you suggesting that people that have been unschooling for a long time haven't examined various ways to parent? Are you suggesting that they have chosen to do it different for a reason other than one based on thoughtful observations?

wish there where more positive people in the world, more people who REALLY accept the things they say they accept.

BE more positive then. You know the old saying... "when you point a finger there are 4 pointing back at yourself"? If you don't like what other unschoolers have to say, why read any of it? Go do your own thing. Nobody can stop you.

I won't go into the OT side of things, except to say that yes we do TEACH the kids, but usually within the horrible school environment, so we have to be very inventive, and allow the kids for a brief time in their day to do things completely outside the box, and hey, guess what, it works.

Now I'm confused. So you aren't even unschooling at all? Your kids go to school and you require that they do chores and all? Then welcome to the rest of the parenting world! You'll find some great articles to read at Parenting magazine!

So anyway, I'll keep posting about how the chores are going.

Let us know how that works as they enter the teen years. In the mean time, hopefully you can find another way!

It was so nice to come home from work, and not have to do extra stuff, cause my kids helped out, and they felt good about it.

Parenting isn't easy! Kids are messy and inconvenient sometimes! That is why I always go back to the relationship building, it never fails!

[Meredith]

wish there where more positive people in the world,

One of the really marvelous things about unschooling is that it offers people an opportunity to see the world, and other people, in a more positive light, and housekeeping is a good example. Chores is a terribly negative word. If you were to ask me "How was your trip to the zoo?" and I replied "It was a chore" you would not assume anything positive about my day! And most of us have learned that housekeeping isn't a terribly positive thing - its a chore. But it doesn't have to be. If you want your kids to feel good about keeping house, keep house with a positive spirit. See cleaning as a gift you give yourself and your family. By all means invite your children to participate! Young children, in particular enjoy learning the skills of housekeeping and are happy to participate. But be sure you are inviting, not requiring - that's the trap parents fall into because it doesn't take very long to learn housekeeping skills, and then children are more likely to say "no, I don't feel like doing that". That's when your positive attitude can be challenged in a big way!

The challenge in those moments is to bring the same sense of positivity to seeing whatever it is your children are choosing to do - see watching a movie or playing with paper or dolls to be just as meaningful an activity as housekeeping, and believe that your children are learning something valuable in their chosen activities - they are! But that's the big challenge for most parents, seeing the value in what children Choose to Learn even when its inconvenient to mom and dad. Do all unschooling parents always rise to that challenge? Of course not. But you also have to opportunity to step over those bad days, rise above that part of yourself that sees the choices of children in a negative light and bring more postivity to your relationship. Give them the gift of a clean place to play, with gratitude that you can do that for them, and cherish their enthusiasm over whatEver they are choosing to learn.

Its wonderful that your kids got a chance to enjoy housekeeping! Not all kids get that chance. Go on inviting them to help you, for sure, but do make it an invitation, not a chore.

[Louise Gibson]

Thanks for all the replies.
I'm having a hard time at the moment marrying working full time for my school district and having my kids at home without me. We have a great nanny who was intially with the kids (8 year old twins) from 3 years old until they went into kindergarten in our public school system.
After an awful 2nd grade experience, with my son being diagnosed with auditory processing disorder and high functioning Aspergers, my daughter being molested over a long period of time by a girl in her class, battling for more support for my son in the classroom so that he could cope, becoming physically sick myself due to all the stressors, I made the decision to pull them out at the end of this summer.

Luckily our Nanny came back to us, at a very reasonable rate. I have to work, my husband has to work due to current financial problems hanging over our heads, and I have had to leave a lot of things up to the nanny during the day.

I wich I could be with them, learning with them, letting things evolve naturally like we do all summer, but like I suppose a lot of parents, I don't get to do that.
Therefore this whole chore issue came up, as I had to leave instructions for the Nanny to make sure this happened during the day, the Nanny brings her 3 year old twin boys here a few days a week, and the state of my kids room was in my opinion almost dangerous for the younger ones.

Anyhow, the kids did have fun doing it all, but I have to leave it in the Nanny's hands as to how it all happens. She has really been a trooper and taken this whole unschooling thing on board, borrowed and read books etc on it.

I have to suggest some type of things that I would like to see happen during the day, at least I FEEL that I have to, maybe I don't, maybe you guys have some insight into this.
Should I be trusting that they will learn no matter what, should I not worry about giving the Nanny some guidance for what should happen during the day?

I have done a search on working ouside the home full time moms who unschool and have to use some form of child care, but cannot find any discussions here on this site.
I've joined a few online groups, but still can't seem to find anyone in my situation, even though I know there must be some out there.

I also live in an area where the home school groups are really schools at home type of people and are religiously based. This is a very small town, 3 grocery stores, little options for kids unless they are in school. The type of town that if you piss someone off because you don't have the same belief system, you are met with a certain 'coolness', you know the type. So far no unschoolers here that I can find.

So I guess at the moment, I am having a really hard time 'letting go', just trusting that my kids will still learn even though I'm not able to be here during the day. I arranged my schedule so that I'm gone about 2 hours before my kids wake up and my husband leaves, so that they are really only with the Nanny for about 5 hours before I get back.
I desperately want all of this to work, and sometimes it is hard to not resort to some sort of schedule, request to happen during the times I am not here.

The truth be told, it is so much easier to just let it all go, and let what happens happen, the decreased stress on some levels is great, but then the anxiety arises again, specially when you work in the very system you just pulled your kids from. On a daily basis I am faced with hundreds of other kids/teachers etc., I have to keep my mouth shut otherwise I would be fired. I see and hear things that make me want to cry. I do the little bit I can by at least being an advocate for the kids on my caseload, and I hope that I have saved my own kids by pulling them out.

I realize that my chore issue, is on a deeper level about so so much more, related to all of these issues.
In some ways this decision to pull out my kids is going to be life changing for me too in terms of letting go. I envy the people who often reply to these discussions with such 'together' advice, how they just seem to have the whole thing down, I know that's not probably how it REALLY is, I know this is not a support group, but it is nice to get some feedback.

So, anyway, this has been a sort of rambling reponse to the replies regarding the chores etc.
If any of you know of any support groups, discussions that I have missed here related to full time working moms (outside the house) who have to use child care, let me know. That may be the most helpful thing of all.

Thanks for taking the time to write such detailed replies, they did help.







Meredith said:

wish there where more positive people in the world,

One of the really marvelous things about unschooling is that it offers people an opportunity to see the world, and other people, in a more positive light, and housekeeping is a good example. Chores is a terribly negative word. If you were to ask me "How was your trip to the zoo?" and I replied "It was a chore" you would not assume anything positive about my day! And most of us have learned that housekeeping isn't a terribly positive thing - its a chore. But it doesn't have to be. If you want your kids to feel good about keeping house, keep house with a positive spirit. See cleaning as a gift you give yourself and your family. By all means invite your children to participate! Young children, in particular enjoy learning the skills of housekeeping and are happy to participate. But be sure you are inviting, not requiring - that's the trap parents fall into because it doesn't take very long to learn housekeeping skills, and then children are more likely to say "no, I don't feel like doing that". That's when your positive attitude can be challenged in a big way!

The challenge in those moments is to bring the same sense of positivity to seeing whatever it is your children are choosing to do - see watching a movie or playing with paper or dolls to be just as meaningful an activity as housekeeping, and believe that your children are learning something valuable in their chosen activities - they are! But that's the big challenge for most parents, seeing the value in what children Choose to Learn even when its inconvenient to mom and dad. Do all unschooling parents always rise to that challenge? Of course not. But you also have to opportunity to step over those bad days, rise above that part of yourself that sees the choices of children in a negative light and bring more postivity to your relationship. Give them the gift of a clean place to play, with gratitude that you can do that for them, and cherish their enthusiasm over whatEver they are choosing to learn.

Its wonderful that your kids got a chance to enjoy housekeeping! Not all kids get that chance. Go on inviting them to help you, for sure, but do make it an invitation, not a chore.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-So I guess at the moment, I am having a really hard time 'letting go', just trusting that my kids will still learn even though I'm not able to be here during the day-=-

Don't "just trust." Do things so that you will see natural learning. Deschooling will be difficult for you because you're working at a school, but you still will need to deschool.

We can't insert unschooling into you. You can't either. It has to be learned, gradually, but if you take too long or don't apply yourself, it can fail. I've seen it fail. I've also seen it succeed. I am willing to spend a great deal of volunteer time helping others succeed. I'm not willing to spend time helping people feel good about failure, or being insulted for sharing what I *know* to work.

If your nanny is working inexpensively, don't tell her what to do very much. Unless she's making as much as a teacher, she shouldn't be expected to BE a teacher. There are some number of hours in a week. You are at work some number of hours. Then there's sleeping. All the rest of that time is time you can be with your children, and THAT is when the unschooling, the natural learning, can happen.

Learning will happen while you're at work too, but as you're not there and can't see it, you shouldn't be trying to micro-manage it. Your children will be deschooled long before you are; that's nearly always the case, even with moms who left school years ago.

I saw this differently the first time too, and I don't now if you (Louis) have seen the reason for the misunderstanding:

------------------
You wrote:
I won't go into the OT side of things, except to say that yes we do TEACH the kids, but usually within the horrible school environment, so we have to be very inventive, and allow the kids for a brief time in their day to do things completely outside the box, and hey, guess what, it works.

Someone responded:
Now I'm confused. So you aren't even unschooling at all? Your kids go to school and you require that they do chores and all? Then welcome to the rest of the parenting world! You'll find some great articles to read at Parenting magazine!
---------------

"OT" in a discussion online means "off topic."
In a discussion of special education, it means "occupational therapy," I'm guessing.
It helps a great deal to use full-word English in these discussions, but things like "OT" and IMHO, LOL, DH, DS... those are the tradition of electronic communications, which this is. This isn't a discussion among "professional educators."

You missed the first three and caught the fourth one:

I have to work...
I had to leave instructions for the Nanny to make sure this happened during the day...
I have to leave it in the Nanny's hands as to how it all happens...
I have to suggest some type of things...

Living life as a long list of limiting, frustrating things you "have to" do does not lead to joy or happiness.

This sounds powerless: "I wich I could be with them, learning with them, letting things evolve naturally like we do all summer, but like I suppose a lot of parents, I don't get to do that."

I think you're asking too much of your nanny, too. Let her play with those children, take them for walks, make them a fun lunch, watch movies with them, sing with them. Let her do what seems right to her in the moment. She shouldn't have to keep your house clean and study unschooling. She should keep your children safe and amused, and be paid to do that. If there's a mess when you get home, that could be seen as evidence of fun and learning and safety. Your children are alive and healthy enough to make a mess. They're fortunate not to be in special education classes in a public school. Find gratitude and joy, for your own sake and your children's.

http://sandradodd.com/morning
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/ (the quote and link about abundance)

This isn't easy. The results can be stunning, though!

Sandra

[Meredith]

Finally, when we were leaving the zoo one day, my daughter's friend said "Ah, do we have to?", my daughter replied with "Don't worry, we're going to get a toy on the way out". Imagine the horror for me of that statement.

Imagine the disappointment of a little girl. That's a stretch for a lot of adults, we're conditioned to ignore or dismiss the feelings of children as unimportant. Ignoring or dismissing another person's feelings isn't a good way to build a partnership, though.

When its hard to transition from one thing to another, it can help to have something to look forward to. Its easier to leave the zoo with a toy - that's not a terrible thing! Its why zoos and museums have gift shops, so people can make the transition from a wonderful day to going back to their regular lives by brining a piece of the wonder along with them.

And she is happy because she isn't confined to picking from the $1 toys and she feels very important when making her purchases at the checkout counter (she's 6 years old).

You could give her an allowance without any strings attached and she'd still feel important, still learn about budgetting and decision making. The strings don't help that. The important part of the money is that you're stepping away from controlling what she's allowed to buy - that's a good thing, but its also possible to do it without adding another kind of control into the mix. You could be generous, instead, and she'd get to learn about economics and the good feelings that come from generosity. When generosity is a regular part of her life for long enough, she'll be happy to give some to others.

if you want something you must work for it

Kids don't need lessons to learn the world is a hard, cold place, its pretty obvious. They don't need parents to be as hard and cold as the world can be. When kids are treated with generosity and kindness, they take on responsibilites by choice, they do difficult things by choice, they get jobs or go to college or have families by choice. They don't need to be trained to those things, they can choose them - and unschooled kids do choose those things, have chosen all of those things. Its okay to be gentle and gracious and giving.

That's not to say that your 6yo will keep doing the things you pay her for if you take away the strings - likely she'll stop. But over time, given the chance, she'll show you some kindness and generosity, too. It takes some time and a shift in perspective to value the grace and generosity of children, but its well worth it - life gets sooo much richer.

[Sandra Dodd]

I agree with Meredith.

-=-I am happy that she is learning the early lesson that if you want something you must work for it to attain it instead of merely wishing for it or expecting it to be given to you.-=-

She's six.
She SHOULD expect that things will be given to her by loving parents who are changing their entire lives around to incorporate natural learning.

Unschoolers sometimes think unschooling is "free" because they don't have to buy a $700 curriculum. It should not be thought of as "free," but the expenses of providing interesting things and experiences for our children is part of the cost of unschooling.

From this page: http://sandradodd.com/nest

"I cringe when I hear/read/see a mom thinking unschooling will take less effort and cost less than having children in public school. Anyone unschooling to save time and money is going the wrong direction. It might cost less in absolutely-required expenditure compared to buying a curriculum or paying private school tuition, and most unschoolers I know are content with plain or used or funky clothes (compared to school uniforms or required fashions and name brand things that might get stolen or lost at school). But if parents don't want to spend ANY money on games, toys, museums, out-of-town trips, books, whatever it is the kids might be interested in, then I think that's not the best the parents could do as unschoolers."

[Louise Gibson]

Thanks for taking the time to reply again, when I was such an angry rotten person yesterday.
I am feeling very fragile at the moment, very weepy. It's either pre-menopause or deschooling.

Our Nanny has never cleaned our house just to let you know, she'd smack me if I asked her to do that.
I let her do her thing, and I'm learning to step out. She wants to read the books, she has a passionate interest in children. Currently she is reading John Taylor Gatto, Dumbing us Down, actually, it's funny, there are 2 bookmarks in the book, one is my husbands and one is hers. She said she can't stop reading it, and after dealing with schools for each of her 5 children, she said she is feeling so much better, and understanding what she went through.
She has guardianship of 3 year old twin boys, and did not want them to go to school either, so this whole adventure of unschooling came at the right time for all of us.

Anyhow, I think I may have to buy your book to get some more advice on this deschooling thing, I am obviously in need of help.
I am determined to make this work, and learn how to have fun doing it. My kids are doing better than me.

Again thanks




Sandra Dodd said:

-=-So I guess at the moment, I am having a really hard time 'letting go', just trusting that my kids will still learn even though I'm not able to be here during the day-=-

Don't "just trust." Do things so that you will see natural learning. Deschooling will be difficult for you because you're working at a school, but you still will need to deschool.

We can't insert unschooling into you. You can't either. It has to be learned, gradually, but if you take too long or don't apply yourself, it can fail. I've seen it fail. I've also seen it succeed. I am willing to spend a great deal of volunteer time helping others succeed. I'm not willing to spend time helping people feel good about failure, or being insulted for sharing what I *know* to work.

If your nanny is working inexpensively, don't tell her what to do very much. Unless she's making as much as a teacher, she shouldn't be expected to BE a teacher. There are some number of hours in a week. You are at work some number of hours. Then there's sleeping. All the rest of that time is time you can be with your children, and THAT is when the unschooling, the natural learning, can happen.

Learning will happen while you're at work too, but as you're not there and can't see it, you shouldn't be trying to micro-manage it. Your children will be deschooled long before you are; that's nearly always the case, even with moms who left school years ago.

I saw this differently the first time too, and I don't now if you (Louis) have seen the reason for the misunderstanding:

------------------
You wrote:
I won't go into the OT side of things, except to say that yes we do TEACH the kids, but usually within the horrible school environment, so we have to be very inventive, and allow the kids for a brief time in their day to do things completely outside the box, and hey, guess what, it works.

Someone responded:
Now I'm confused. So you aren't even unschooling at all? Your kids go to school and you require that they do chores and all? Then welcome to the rest of the parenting world! You'll find some great articles to read at Parenting magazine!
---------------

"OT" in a discussion online means "off topic."
In a discussion of special education, it means "occupational therapy," I'm guessing.
It helps a great deal to use full-word English in these discussions, but things like "OT" and IMHO, LOL, DH, DS... those are the tradition of electronic communications, which this is. This isn't a discussion among "professional educators."

You missed the first three and caught the fourth one:

I have to work...
I had to leave instructions for the Nanny to make sure this happened during the day...
I have to leave it in the Nanny's hands as to how it all happens...
I have to suggest some type of things...

Living life as a long list of limiting, frustrating things you "have to" do does not lead to joy or happiness.

This sounds powerless: "I wich I could be with them, learning with them, letting things evolve naturally like we do all summer, but like I suppose a lot of parents, I don't get to do that."

I think you're asking too much of your nanny, too. Let her play with those children, take them for walks, make them a fun lunch, watch movies with them, sing with them. Let her do what seems right to her in the moment. She shouldn't have to keep your house clean and study unschooling. She should keep your children safe and amused, and be paid to do that. If there's a mess when you get home, that could be seen as evidence of fun and learning and safety. Your children are alive and healthy enough to make a mess. They're fortunate not to be in special education classes in a public school. Find gratitude and joy, for your own sake and your children's.

http://sandradodd.com/morning
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/ (the quote and link about abundance)

This isn't easy. The results can be stunning, though!

Sandra

[Louise Gibson]

Thanks for the links, I'm determined, I will get there, I need to be there in that space and that way of being, I think I have finally found where I've been going all along, or at least part of the map, so thanks for imparting to my bitchy self.
I wonder if this is why at the moment I just feel like weeping, Stuff is coming up and out, I'm not usually a weeper. Is this something do you think that others go through when they make the decision to pull out their kids and do this, does it somehow start pulling the top off the rigid bottled up crap we have been holding onto for so long?
Maybe it's like being let out of prison, the feelings are so great that you can laugh hysterically one moment, weep the next.

So, anyway thanks again.

Louise

Louise Gibson said:

Thanks for taking the time to reply again, when I was such an angry rotten person yesterday.
I am feeling very fragile at the moment, very weepy. It's either pre-menopause or deschooling.

Our Nanny has never cleaned our house just to let you know, she'd smack me if I asked her to do that.
I let her do her thing, and I'm learning to step out. She wants to read the books, she has a passionate interest in children. Currently she is reading John Taylor Gatto, Dumbing us Down, actually, it's funny, there are 2 bookmarks in the book, one is my husbands and one is hers. She said she can't stop reading it, and after dealing with schools for each of her 5 children, she said she is feeling so much better, and understanding what she went through.
She has guardianship of 3 year old twin boys, and did not want them to go to school either, so this whole adventure of unschooling came at the right time for all of us.

Anyhow, I think I may have to buy your book to get some more advice on this deschooling thing, I am obviously in need of help.
I am determined to make this work, and learn how to have fun doing it. My kids are doing better than me.

Again thanks




Sandra Dodd said:

-=-So I guess at the moment, I am having a really hard time 'letting go', just trusting that my kids will still learn even though I'm not able to be here during the day-=-

Don't "just trust." Do things so that you will see natural learning. Deschooling will be difficult for you because you're working at a school, but you still will need to deschool.

We can't insert unschooling into you. You can't either. It has to be learned, gradually, but if you take too long or don't apply yourself, it can fail. I've seen it fail. I've also seen it succeed. I am willing to spend a great deal of volunteer time helping others succeed. I'm not willing to spend time helping people feel good about failure, or being insulted for sharing what I *know* to work.

If your nanny is working inexpensively, don't tell her what to do very much. Unless she's making as much as a teacher, she shouldn't be expected to BE a teacher. There are some number of hours in a week. You are at work some number of hours. Then there's sleeping. All the rest of that time is time you can be with your children, and THAT is when the unschooling, the natural learning, can happen.

Learning will happen while you're at work too, but as you're not there and can't see it, you shouldn't be trying to micro-manage it. Your children will be deschooled long before you are; that's nearly always the case, even with moms who left school years ago.

I saw this differently the first time too, and I don't now if you (Louis) have seen the reason for the misunderstanding:

------------------
You wrote:
I won't go into the OT side of things, except to say that yes we do TEACH the kids, but usually within the horrible school environment, so we have to be very inventive, and allow the kids for a brief time in their day to do things completely outside the box, and hey, guess what, it works.

Someone responded:
Now I'm confused. So you aren't even unschooling at all? Your kids go to school and you require that they do chores and all? Then welcome to the rest of the parenting world! You'll find some great articles to read at Parenting magazine!
---------------

"OT" in a discussion online means "off topic."
In a discussion of special education, it means "occupational therapy," I'm guessing.
It helps a great deal to use full-word English in these discussions, but things like "OT" and IMHO, LOL, DH, DS... those are the tradition of electronic communications, which this is. This isn't a discussion among "professional educators."

You missed the first three and caught the fourth one:

I have to work...
I had to leave instructions for the Nanny to make sure this happened during the day...
I have to leave it in the Nanny's hands as to how it all happens...
I have to suggest some type of things...

Living life as a long list of limiting, frustrating things you "have to" do does not lead to joy or happiness.

This sounds powerless: "I wich I could be with them, learning with them, letting things evolve naturally like we do all summer, but like I suppose a lot of parents, I don't get to do that."

I think you're asking too much of your nanny, too. Let her play with those children, take them for walks, make them a fun lunch, watch movies with them, sing with them. Let her do what seems right to her in the moment. She shouldn't have to keep your house clean and study unschooling. She should keep your children safe and amused, and be paid to do that. If there's a mess when you get home, that could be seen as evidence of fun and learning and safety. Your children are alive and healthy enough to make a mess. They're fortunate not to be in special education classes in a public school. Find gratitude and joy, for your own sake and your children's.

http://sandradodd.com/morning
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/ (the quote and link about abundance)

This isn't easy. The results can be stunning, though!

Sandra