Small forms of disrespect growing into larger forms.

[Mandy]

Hi all,

I was having a discussion this morning with a friend who said something along the lines of "small forms of disrespect that are not mended will grow into larger forms of disrespect".

I have had challenges with this myself for years and to a certain degree I believe that statement is true. But something about it doesn't sit right with me. She is a homeschooler that believes in mild consequences and punishments to stop unwanted behaviors.

I personally have put in the extra effort to head off such behaviors and have rarely used a consequence. I cannot think of the last time my husband or myself did or said anything that could be considered a punishment, but sometimes that extra effort just does not work and sometimes it does continue and escalate. I would like to discuss why this happens despite everything being in balance.

Her example was that one of her kids is constantly pulling the bathroom towels off their racks onto the floor. I think he is six now and he is smart as can be, he certainly knows what he is doing. Because she took my advice and did not put him in time-out or take away something she believes she now has a real problem.

She said it is being done on purpose almost every day despite her making sure all the bases are covered that we have discussed might lead a child to unwanted or damaging behaviors - tired, hungry, stressful day, boredom, lack of choices, connection, personal time, etc. She also has given them a shelf in the bathroom closet with about a dozen towels that they can use for whatever they want.

She also mentioned some curse words being used by him and now a younger sibling that they will not stop despite being asked almost daily now.

I suddenly drew a blank in this conversation and for some reason today I am unable to think this through. I was hoping someone here will get what my tired warbled mind is trying to say and give me some food for thought on the dynamics of this and why even when there seems to be perfect balance in the home children sometimes like to do what they are asked not to do and why they would continue despite being asked not to.

Thank you.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-She is a homeschooler that believes in mild consequences and punishments to stop unwanted behaviors.
-=-

I think it's true. If her disrespect for her children isn't mended, it will grow much larger.

Maybe this would help her:
http://sandradodd.com/gift

[Jen H.]

"Her example was that one of her kids is constantly pulling the bathroom towels off their racks onto the floor."

Is she saying he walks into the bathrooms at every opportunity and pulls the towels down?

OR

Does he pull them off when he is trying to dry his hands?

Assuming the later (and Mom is exaggerating out of frustration), then it's not a needs issue. He probably accidentally pulls them down and either doesn't notice or it's too hard for him to get the towel back on the rack. This is probably one of those, it's important to Mom, but totally not on the radar of a six year old boy.

Addressing needs is important. Sometimes simple solutions are good, too. How about she rigs the towel so it isn't so easy to pull off. Diaper pin it at the back in a few places.

"She is a homeschooler that believes in mild consequences and punishments to stop unwanted behaviors."

Maybe in her household the kids are looking to reassert some power. If she's easing up the controls for the first time in a while, perhaps they are seeing how much they can get away with before Mom puts the controls back on.

"why even when there seems to be perfect balance in the home children sometimes like to do what they are asked not to do and why they would continue despite being asked not to."

Because it's fun.

Because children are individuals with their own thoughts, wants, needs, desires.

Is the assumption that the child must always do as asked, assuming they are well fed, well rested, and listened to?

What about the balance that allows for a child to say No. Maybe the thing is way more important to Mom than the kid (a tidy house). Different people have different priorities.

The parent should try to see things from their child's point of view. Try to see what is so appealing to the child about the behavior the parent wants to stop, and what is so unappealing to the child about the behavior the parent wants to promote.


Jen H.

http://crazychicknlady.livejournal.com/

[Mandy]

Hi Sandra, Your link did not work for me and a search of your site did not return that gift page. I also must disagree with your comment. She really does have a great deal of respect for her children. If you compare how she was raised she has come a very, very long ways and the amount of time and loving energy she puts into her family is inspiring.

Until she met our family she did not see that there was another option. She did not see the time-outs as disrespectful, she saw it as necessary to help the child understand that a behavior such as hitting your sister was unacceptable. She said that she started with explanations and when those words were ignored she started using time-out. And then when the destructive or harmful behavior would continue she started taking away a privilege like a video game.

Her rationalization to me was that if she doesn't follow the speed limits she will be fined and if she continued this potentially harmful behavior she could lose her privilege to drive. So she asked me why is this going to scar a child to briefly lose a privilege when they continue to perform acts that hurt or break when they know better and many other options are readily available?

I mentioned connection and trust and she said that they have in fact agreed that there needs to be something to help remind them before they set off on these destructive adventures. I guess that works great for the girls and not so well for the boys. I started to draw a blank after that.

I want to organize my thoughts on this so my explanation is clear for her and her husband. I was hoping to discuss the dynamics of children that will continue a behavior that they know is destructive despite having been given safe choices, and even when everything going on with them and in the family appears to be in balance.

I have heard this many times over the years so it must be common?

I personally have lived this. I just hang in there and it passes, but there have been times I wanted to do something, anything to get it to stop. But I kept at it and eventually we moved past, but it has been rough at times. I have one child that really likes to do things that we ask him not to do so I understand her situation. I just think her child is much more stubborn than mine so I would very much like to help them with this.

[Mandy]

Hi Jen, I spent all the time I have responding to Sandra but I appreciate your insights and I will definately pass them along.

Yes he just goes in and pulls them down. It is one of many similar things I guess that happen throughout the day. Some are just the adventures of young children, boys in particular. But she has asked them to not do certain things and she has given them options for those, like the shelf of towels just for them. Her concern is that they choose to do what has been asked of them not to do instead of choosing the acceptable option.

My understanding is that there really have not been a lot of controls, just a few things that I think all of us would consider unacceptable behavior and when they would not agree to keep the house or a sibling safe she chose to use time-out because that was the best she knew how to do from her level of undertanding.

For me now I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this to explain it to her. I have been doing it so long it's like second nature and for some reason the last couple of days it's just hard for me to explain.

I think if I could just get back to the dynamics of how this works when the kids are doing this kind of thing then I can apply it to her situation and explain it properly.

Gotta run, thank you all again!

[JennyStar]

"Her example was that one of her kids is constantly pulling the bathroom towels off their racks onto the floor. I think he is six now and he is smart as can be, he certainly knows what he is doing. Because she took my advice and did not put him in time-out or take away something she believes she now has a real problem."

The REAL problem is that she sees it as a problem! Seriously, pulling a towel down and leaving on the floor is not a big deal! If it's a sanitation issue, get paper towels for the bathroom, wash hand towels more often. Maybe the kid doesn't like already used towels to dry his clean hands on, or perhaps he's using it to clean up water drips off the floor.

"She also mentioned some curse words being used by him and now a younger sibling that they will not stop despite being asked almost daily now."

Why can't the kids experiment with curse words? Something that we've done, instead of making the kids stop cursing, is to instead focus more on appropriate times and places for such things.

"I was having a discussion this morning with a friend who said something along the lines of "small forms of disrespect that are not mended will grow into larger forms of disrespect"."

Respect begets respect, so the same applies to disrespect. If a parent is continuously disrespectful of their children, they were surely learn how to be disrespectful back. If a parent is working towards being respectful, or are already there, to their children, their children will learn how to be respectful.

[SarahCaroline]

What would happen if your friend pretended for a day that she were a gracious monk who just picked up and replaced the towels each time they were left in a place she didn't want? So that particular fight just didn't kick off for one day. Purely as an experiment.

[JennyStar]

"My understanding is that there really have not been a lot of controls, just a few things that I think all of us would consider unacceptable behavior and when they would not agree to keep the house or a sibling safe she chose to use time-out because that was the best she knew how to do from her level of undertanding."

I'm sure all of us have different ideas of what is acceptable and what isn't. If this person finds tossing towels on the floor unacceptable, then, I clearly have a different idea of acceptable or not.

Time-outs don't really work as a form of discipline. It's obvious they don't for this woman, otherwise, her kids would be complying with her towel rule, right? Perhaps if she didn't make such a big deal out of little things like towels on the floor, her kids would listen to her about bigger things. Currently the kids probably hear, what all the kids in Charlie Brown hear, when adults talk. wa wa wa wa wa....

[Sherry]

Whoa guys, come on. I am certain that Mandy would not write asking about the dynamics of children being respectful if disrespect just happened once in a while. It sounds to me like it happens repeatedly despite being asked to stop and being given options? And I am certain that the child is not cleaning up water drips. I am going to give this mother a whole lot more credit than that! In fact she said that they have a shelf with towels just for the kids so why wouldn’t the child use those towels to clean up drips if that was the case?

As I have visited these forums from time to time the thing that I always come away surprised by, besides that I think a lot of mothers are really out there trying to be the best they can be, is the fact that so many of these same mothers also do not give their peers the benefit of the doubt. It never ceases to amaze me how this self proclaimed ultra respectful group can immediately make negative comments and assumptions. Is the respect and value they place on the human condition reserved for only the children?

ANYWAY, (Deep Breath) It must be help those you love day because I was just about to post in the support forum almost the exact same scenario as Mandy.
I just came back from my daughters after spending 6 days and 5 nights this holiday weekend. It was my grandsons 5th birthday. He is also very intelligent and yet behaves in disturbing ways. The example I will give will be the bedding he tears off on a continuing basis. Again, this is the example I am using. The real challenge is the overall big picture and everything else that goes along with it, not just this one example. So please do not assume that it is just this one thing and as such is “no big deal”. It is a big deal because it’s one of many reoccurring challenges she faces.

He will take everything off the beds (They have two king size beds put together to make one large family bed) down to the mite covers over the mattress. This includes pillow cases and their dust mite covers, and well just about everything ends up on the floor and often is dragged around the house from room to room.
These guys have 3 dogs and they have a flea issue right now not to mention the family of 6. My math tells me that is 24 feet constantly dragging dirt from the front and backyard onto the floor. I am not a total germ freak but I really would not want to lay my head on a pillow or put my body into sheets that had been pulled across the floor of her house. She spends so much time with the kids that she lets a lot of housework go.

So why would this intelligent, wonderfully creative child want to tear apart the bed they all sleep in? As an outsider looking in I think they are a very balanced family. Maybe a little stressed recently because of the loss of some income. But they are making ends meet and I don’t think the kids really know all that much difference.
They rarely hear the word No! They likes to make tents and they have collected old sheets and blankets so there is a pile 4 feet tall of both pillows and blankets.
However I am told he has been going into their bedroom several times a week and completely dismantling the beds. I am also told and I personally witnessed him watching his mother wash the entire bedding for probably the 50th or actually more like the 100th time this year, and then not two hours later when everyone was tired and ready to climb into bed it was all back across the floor again.
Personally I could not believe it. When he heard me gasp he hid his face in the covers, so he absolutely knows and feels something like embarrassment. Like Mandy and her friend, my daughter and I have discussed meeting needs and we do not see what is missing here. I think it is because there has never been anything but words and a strong willed child will do what they want unless motivated to do otherwise.

I was very upset, his father was very upset and so was his mother. The next day the blankets stayed on the bed. But the day after that they were in a huge pile on the bed and all the kids were jumping into that pile (Yes they have a trampoline).

I hope I have not taken over Mandy's question or pushed it off topic. I feel like my daughters situation is identical to her friends. I hope we can engage in some useful discussions on this topic.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

I think she's focusing too much on actions and not on motivations and needs. She's expecting her explanations to remotely parent for her. If a child is still doing something after an explanation it's because they're not yet able to do something else and they still need help finding a better way.

A quick no or "Don't hurt me to get my attention," or some kind of short feedback and immediately focusing on helping the child meet his needs will help enormously.

Children's reactions are very similar to adult reactions. When we see a child spitting or hitting, we think kids are untrained and out of control because we're not seeing the world they're reacting to. We're only seeing the world through adult eyes. We'll be far more effective at communicating if we go into their world rather than trying to drag them into seeing the world from our point of view. Their point of view will change as they get older because they're older, because we apply the philosophies of respect and kindness as we help them, not because we've trained them to see differently.

If an adult goes to a boss with a problem and the boss goes off on the wrongness of the adult's shoes or something irrelevant to the problem, wouldn't the adult be frustrated? If that happened repeatedly, wouldn't the adult lose respect for the boss? That's what's happeneing. The child is trying to meet a need and the mom goes off on the child's approach, focusing on the mom's problem with the child and not the child's problem. He's way more likely to listen if he knows she's there to help him meet his needs. If he sees her as politeness police, he's not only not likely to listen to these spontaneous lectures, he's likely to go seek his own (potentially dangerous) solutions quietly behind her back.

If he's pulling the towels down on purpose, then there's something deeper going on. It could be pay back for past hurts. It could be his form of protest. Eliminating the towel pulling doesn't eliminate the hurt or need to express it. It just drives it elsewhere. Maybe he'll start peeing in her garden when she isn't looking, or spitting in her coffee ;-) I'd let it go and focus on healing the hurt.

Often when kids are at their worst is when they need the most love.

If he'll pulling them down without noticing, it's because his attention is focused on what he's headed off to do and not on his actions. He's 6. This is normal. My 17 yo is still doing similar things. If I ask her to pick up her clothes she notices and picks them up. Her brain's just going a mile a minute and she doesn't notice. I can't make her notice. I can't change her brain. But I can make life miserable for her until she's capable of noticing on her own.

If she's explained to him once, he understands. But understanding isn't the same as being able to not do *especially* -- and this is important -- he doesn't have help meeting the need he's using the unacceptable methods to meet.

If a child wants a toy and hits his sister to get it, and mom always focuses on not hitting, she hasn't helped him. Yes, do say no to the hitting. (Though at some point that's obvious! Just a "Hey!" is going to get that point across.) Problem solve with him. Help him find better ways to meet the needs. She won't be able to hand him a solution and expect him to apply it forever after. This will be an ongoing process. He'll get better at it, but he needs to watch someone else walk through the process to find something better many times.

It will help her to let go of the need to stop and control him. Don't focus on the behavior. Focus on the need and the behavior will subside when he's able. He won't learn to respect others until he feels respected. It doesn't work the other way around! Too many parents say they'll treat their child with respect when the child shows respect. It will help greatly to see that at first children aren't being disrespectful. They're just trying to meet a need. If the mom responds with disrespect and anger to the child's attempts to meet their need, the child will respond with disrespect and anger.

The first chapter of How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk is a great beginning. (They don't go far enough but it's a great foundation.)

And here's a whole bunch of momisms I do respect my kids. It's illuminating to read them not as a mom but as someone they're being directed at. Picture a teacher or a boss saying them to you.

[Mandy]

Hi Joyce, Thank you so much for your kind and thorough response. I have a few things I would like to add to this discussion but I really do not have the time right now. I just wanted to say this is very important information and I am grateful for you and I will pass it along and let you know what she says.

[JennyStar]

"And I am certain that the child is not cleaning up water drips. I am going to give this mother a whole lot more credit than that! In fact she said that they have a shelf with towels just for the kids so why wouldn’t the child use those towels to clean up drips if that was the case?"

How can you be certain what goes on in the mind of a child? I have 2 kids and one is 15 and sometimes I still don't know what goes on in her head when she does things and I know her pretty darn well, well enough to finish sentences for her. Why do kids do what they do? That's kind of the point right? Understanding why a kid would do what they do and working with them to figure that out!

Kids do things impulsively sometimes, why wouldn't they use a towel that they happen to be holding, to clean up a water mess?

"It never ceases to amaze me how this self proclaimed ultra respectful group can immediately make negative comments and assumptions. Is the respect and value they place on the human condition reserved for only the children?"

Not a single person on this thread has been disrespectful or assuming. All the answers thus far have been pretty thoughtful. The fact is, not everyone on any forum is going to be really "getting" unschooling. It's a hard thing to get working for even the most relaxed and happy parent. In any given discussion there will be many many people reading and not writing, so all advice comes from that place of references, even though it addresses specific questions from specific people.

There is clearly a dynamic that isn't working in that family. They punish and get frustrated by non-compliance. You don't actually have to say "no" all the time to have kids hear it anyway. It comes out in tone and attitude and action.

"So why would this intelligent, wonderfully creative child want to tear apart the bed they all sleep in?"

Perhaps because it's fun? Perhaps he's seeking attention and not getting it, so does stuff that gets attention? With a lot of kids in a family, I could see that one or two of those kids might feel like they need more attention and not be getting it. That's not to say it can't be done, but it takes full on awareness on the part of the person at home with them, and from all accounts told thus far, that awareness isn't there yet.

[Jen H.]

"Again, this is the example I am using. The real challenge is the overall big picture and everything else that goes along with it, not just this one example. So please do not assume that it is just this one thing and as such is “no big deal”. It is a big deal because it’s one of many reoccurring challenges she faces."

I don't know how to generalize into other aspects of your daughter's life based on one example. However, the more things one can make into "no big deal" in daily dealings with kids, the more likely they are to take us seriously when we decide something is a big deal.

The only help I know how to offer is in regards to the example you chose to bring to this group. But some additional information about your grandson, might cut down on some of the guesswork. Where does he fall in age with the other siblings? Is he the oldest of four, thus expected to act older than he is capable? Was he the youngest for a while, and now feels displaced by a new sibling?

"He will take everything off the beds (They have two king size beds put together to make one large family bed) down to the mite covers over the mattress. This includes pillow cases and their dust mite covers, and well just about everything ends up on the floor and often is dragged around the house from room to room."

Your grandson was four when all this started (assuming it hasn't been going on for over a year). Four is very little. A four often is physically capable when they are not emotionally capable. My daughter needed me more intensely at four than three. She wanted to be care taken more, even though she was more physically able to to things on her own.

"So why would this intelligent, wonderfully creative child want to tear apart the bed they all sleep in?"

The fact than your grandson is dragging everything from room to room makes me think he is doing it for comfort. Does he lay on the sheets when he gets to the room he wants to be in? My six year old daughter has a huge blanket she loves to keep with her and it ends up dragged along the floor wherever she takes it.

"As an outsider looking in I think they are a very balanced family. Maybe a little stressed recently because of the loss of some income. But they are making ends meet and I don’t think the kids really know all that much difference."

If Mom and Dad are stressed, that could have a big impact on a child, even if the adults think they are hiding it well. Your daughter is very attached to her kids (giving her the benefit of the doubt ;-), so they are likely picking up that something is wrong.

Maybe the family bed is a calm happy place for your grandson, and he wants to carry that calm around with him by having the movable bedding with him.

"When he heard me gasp he hid his face in the covers, so he absolutely knows and feels something like embarrassment."

If he had laughed, I'd say he was doing it for fun and he thought the grownups reactions were funny. It sounds, instead, like he has an intense desire for the comfort of the bedding, and no alternative is working for him right now.

Has your daughter tried letting him have the bedding, and putting different sheets on for a while?

"But the day after that they were in a huge pile on the bed and all the kids were jumping into that pile (Yes they have a trampoline)."

Jumping into a pile of bedding is much different than a trampoline. Different experience, I can see how the kids wouldn't think a trampoline would be a the same. What if at that moment, Mom gathered up that four feet of extra bedding you mentioned, added it to the pile and joined in. After lots of laughter and fun, then put the bed back together.

By the way, where where the parents during the stripping of the beds; it seems like that would take a while. Four kids would be hard to keep up with, but if all the kids were jumping, where were the parents?

As a practical stopgap solution, if the spare sheets wont work, and she can't spare the extra time to keep better track of the now five year old (though being more engaged with him for a while might help), she could lock the bedroom door.

That doesn't address the underlying need, but it might help her keep her calm, and save her on time doing laundry.

Jen H.

http://crazychicknlady.livejournal.com/
Jen H.