Small forms of disrespect growing into larger forms.

[Mandy]

Hi all,

I was having a discussion this morning with a friend who said something along the lines of "small forms of disrespect that are not mended will grow into larger forms of disrespect".

I have had challenges with this myself for years and to a certain degree I believe that statement is true. But something about it doesn't sit right with me. She is a homeschooler that believes in mild consequences and punishments to stop unwanted behaviors.

I personally have put in the extra effort to head off such behaviors and have rarely used a consequence. I cannot think of the last time my husband or myself did or said anything that could be considered a punishment, but sometimes that extra effort just does not work and sometimes it does continue and escalate. I would like to discuss why this happens despite everything being in balance.

Her example was that one of her kids is constantly pulling the bathroom towels off their racks onto the floor. I think he is six now and he is smart as can be, he certainly knows what he is doing. Because she took my advice and did not put him in time-out or take away something she believes she now has a real problem.

She said it is being done on purpose almost every day despite her making sure all the bases are covered that we have discussed might lead a child to unwanted or damaging behaviors - tired, hungry, stressful day, boredom, lack of choices, connection, personal time, etc. She also has given them a shelf in the bathroom closet with about a dozen towels that they can use for whatever they want.

She also mentioned some curse words being used by him and now a younger sibling that they will not stop despite being asked almost daily now.

I suddenly drew a blank in this conversation and for some reason today I am unable to think this through. I was hoping someone here will get what my tired warbled mind is trying to say and give me some food for thought on the dynamics of this and why even when there seems to be perfect balance in the home children sometimes like to do what they are asked not to do and why they would continue despite being asked not to.

Thank you.

[Linda Hessel]

It *is* a big deal. I mean yes, towels on the floor in the grand scheme of things is in itself not a big deal. But it's not nothing either -- it could mean mildew, towels that have picked up dust mites that irritate skin, extra unnecessary work for mother. In a mutually loving respectful household all members have the right to expect that others be considerate of their needs even if they find them trivial themselves. My kids don't share my desire for a clean home, but they doesn't go out of their way to make extra mess for me, either. If they did it would be pretty upsetting to me -- not the extra work so much, very much the intention. But it goes both ways -- I need to be respectful of them by not demanding that they share in work that is not important to them. So I'm not going to find them washing down the floors, for instance. But I'm also not going to find them tracking dirt in when it's easy enough to remove their mud-covered boots in the entryway. The younger ones need reminding, but the point is they don't do it intentionally.

If she's really sure that he knows it upsets her and he does it anyway, over and over, intentionally (i.e. it's not just forgetfulness) -- that's not indicative of a "perfectly balanced" family life. There is something else going on there and punishment is not going to fix it, it will make it worse. It's like trying to fix a leaky faucet by banging on it rather than finding and fixing the point of stress.

But I wonder, too, if he does really understand that it matters to her. I know parents who feel that to react strongly to something, to show their actual feelings, is a burden to the child, or... I don't know, I suppose there are motivations I don't know of. Maybe that showing upset is being weak? Regardless, without it the child has no basis for understanding the effect of his/her actions. How would one develop empathy or a sense of responsibility growing up that way? And then you add punishment on top of that, and to the child it looks like the important thing to the adult is simply having power over the child.

[Alan Marshall]

***if she's really sure that he knows it upsets her and he does it anyway, over and over, intentionally (i.e. it's not just forgetfulness) --***

Ah, that's the point, there is not good reason to be sure of that. The root of the problem is likely to be that the parent is falsely sure of the child's intent when that is really unknowable. It's very common for parents to overestimate the developmental ability of a child. It seems like a child should be able to understand the situation as we do, but very often that is just not possible for someone so young and inexperienced. Better to let the child develop empathy and consideration naturally in his own time, and just pick up the towels yourself.

[Sylvia Toyama]

On the bed issue -- maybe he just doesn't like to sleep on sheets? Has anyone ever asked him what kind of bedding he wants?

My oldest sleeps on bare mattress, with a blanket/quilt pulled up around him. He's 24yo and has always pulled the sheets/covers off the bed. I cannot imagine sleeping on bare mattress, but he actually prefers it that way. He also sleeps fully clothed -- all my kids always have, entirely by choice. Not pajamas, but in every day clothes -- jeans, sweatpants, etc. Me, I have to sleep undressed and I must have sheets tucked in and one sheet over me, even when it's hot.

Maybe some compromise can be reached on the bedding issue.

For the first family and the towel issue. Personally, I see a bigger issue. Mention was made of 'using consequences' -- that phrase always hits me wrong. Consequences are just whatever happens next because they're what happens. If one is 'using' consequences to prove a point, then it's contrived, and kids pick up on contrivance. No one wants to be manipulated, and when Mom & Dad are waiting around for the consequences of child's actions to 'teach him a lesson' then many of us (we were all three like that as kids) will resist even the most painful lessons.

As long as she's spanking or limiting, she can expect defiance and disrespect, because as others have said disrespect begets disrespect.

For the record, it's a towel for crying out loud. Pick it up when you notice it there without saying anything. Personally it's just not worth the fight. I pick up dishes left out (two of my kids apparently can't find the kitchen sink, the other never leaves dishes out), put towels away, pick up laundry left out and just move on.

Oh, I just thought of this. Once, when I was feeling put upon by picking up after three kids, I stepped back to look around and realized dh and I are just as likely to leave things lying about. Not the same things, maybe, because we are just as careless about things that don't matter to us as the kids are with things that don't matter to them. That really helped my perspective, to realize I'm probably no easier to live with than anyone else in my house.

[JennyStar]

"It seems like a child should be able to understand the situation as we do, but very often that is just not possible for someone so young and inexperienced. Better to let the child develop empathy and consideration naturally in his own time, and just pick up the towels yourself."

And what better way to model that? Picking up a towel sweetly over and over again shows that you care about where the towel goes. Showing that you are willing to do it over and over and over again shows that you really DO care about your child in that moment, that you do understand that they can't do it for themselves yet, that you do care that he's ready to move on to something else.

Look at the bright side here too, the kid obviously just washed his hands.... Come on! How many little ones wash their hands on their own accord?

[Mandy]

I am so sorry that I once again do not have the time to further this discussion I started. I had been under the impression that my husband and children were going to be gone all day today and I thought I could spend some time on this, but sometimes things change!

I don't even have the time to read all the new posts.

Actually it looks like I might have a minute so lets see how fast I can type!!

I did speak to my friend Trish briefly this morning and she said that the towels are just one example among many of the child knowing better, having an available option and yet choosing to do what he has been asked not to do. It does not have anything to do with him wanting or needing the towels. He is not using the towels for anything productive like drying himself or cleaning. She was a little upset that anyone would get that impression and I assured her is was completely my fault for not explaining things clearly enough.

I guess he walks in and pulls the towels down and walks out. He also does this with the kitchen towel that is hanging on the oven door handle. He sometimes does this with clothes that have just been folded on the couch or dining room table. She mentioned other things I cannot remember right now. She said it is important to explain that he communicates extremely well and she is close enough to all of her kids to know when they are needing something so maybe it's not something all that simple or common?

From my personal perspective it sounds almost like rebellion, but she assures me that there is nothing to rebel against because they usually do whatever they want whenever they want and there is laughing and joy throughout the house all the time. Also remember this started before any consequences.

She said that this is something he does especially when it has been explained to him that it’s just not acceptable behavior, just like yelling the F word all around the house when he has been asked to keep the volume down, take it outside or maybe choose a more loving thing to sing? This to her is especially disrespectful because it affects so many other people. I remember earlier this year she said they were asked to leave at the zoo or maybe it was a museum because someone complained about the obscenities they overheard.

She said it makes her feel bad and she does not like to hear it and would never put up with it from any adult in her life. So she asks me why she needs to put up with this on a daily basis from her children? And then she asks me how to end this use of language? I said that I honestly don't know. How do you make someone stop using words that you find unacceptable? There has to be an answer to that but I sure don't have it right now.

She explained to me about 30 minutes of time yesterday when they were bringing in a couch from the truck outside and some of her kids were asked certain things for their safety and they either ignored her completely or they said no. I will get those thoughts together and write that later for maybe a little clarification to this challenge.

She said that she thinks this happens in most families at one time or another and that it’s either nipped in the bud quickly or it’s allowed to grow like in her case. That brings up a point she made that she has not always punished and in fact rarely does it and that is why she believes this is happening.

She said that the family discussed consequences because the older kids were being abused by the younger and there was no way for it to stop other than removing them. Before that it was only words and eventually that did not work. First came a removal to a separate room - time out - and the worst was taking away a video game for a day or two. Although they have discussed it and the older kids think it’s a great idea, she has never spanked any of them.

I have to run, they gave me about 15 minutes and that is a lot. Again she said that she thinks this is a dynamic that plays out in most families, I have to agree, it plays out in mine, but my kids are not as stubborn or as high energy.

She said that there has to be some parents that have a trick or two up their sleeves to keep the family running smoothly in this situation of a large family not feeling they can express themselves and be heard by one or two of the children.

Thank you to everyone that has participated in this discussion.

Have a Great Weekend!

[Jen H.]

"She said that the family discussed consequences because the older kids were being abused by the younger and there was no way for it to stop other than removing them."

What age range? How can youngers abuse olders?

My son (3yrs) will hit his sisters (6 and 8) sometimes. Usually he's either frustrated because they can out maneuver him verbally, and they aren't listening to what he wants, or he's feeling bouncy and needs some large physical movements and wants to get them to chase him or wrestle.

This can be a challenge, but if I take the time to rough house with him I can take the pressure off his sisters (sometimes Daddy gets called in for extra rough play). If I remove him from his sisters I go with him.

"I guess he walks in and pulls the towels down and walks out. He also does this with the kitchen towel that is hanging on the oven door handle. He sometimes does this with clothes that have just been folded on the couch or dining room table."

I can't fathom any of my kids at six or older doing this.

Does he think it's funny, or is he angry? Does he feel powerless about something, and is pushing back by doing this?

"I remember earlier this year she said they were asked to leave at the zoo or maybe it was a museum because someone complained about the obscenities they overheard."

It sounds like her kids doing the cussing didn't really want to be there. Did they get dragged along because the rest of the family wanted to go, and were bored? Maybe they need to plan to stay home a lot for a while.

If my kids want to be somewhere they behave in a way appropriate for the location (sometimes it takes a couple of reminders). If my kids started cussing at a public area (especially one with kids around) I'd remind them that they need to behave in a way that does not mess up the experience for the other people there. If they kept it up (or running, yelling, any other disruptive behavior), we'd leave.

Jen H.

http://crazychicknlady.livejournal.com/

[Joyce Fetteroll]

Part 1 (I know this will be too long to fit)

She said that she thinks this happens in most families at one time or another and that it’s either nipped in the bud quickly or it’s allowed to grow like in her case.

No.

No.

No.

That can't be emphasized enough! ;-)

That perspective assumes that kids are naturally bad and we need to train it out of them.

It will help hugely if she approaches them from the perspective that all kids (humans!) are trying to meet their needs. They don't want to hurt others. BUT when they have a need they can't yet meet without help, others' needs get a lower priority. The best way to help them take others' needs into consideration isn't to ignore the needy child and make them focus on someone else's hurt. Do, of course, stop them from hurting someone, but rather than making the child be respectful and kind and safe, help the child meet their need in ways that are respectful and kind and safe. Be the change rather than changing someone else.

She said that the family discussed consequences because the older kids were being abused by the younger and there was no way for it to stop other than removing them. Before that it was only words and eventually that did not work.

This, I think, is a trap that a lot of parents fall into. They think handing a child a new, better behavior is all that's needed. It's essentially remote control parenting.

The kids actions are saying clearly that they aren't yet able to apply what they've been handed. They may understand perfectly, but in the situation they just aren't yet able to apply it. They need help.

What they need is her presence. She needs to be there, doing something in the same room with them or with them playing. They shouldn't be alone in situations where one child can dominate another. She needs to be aware of their moods and needs even before they are so she can attend to them before they reach the point of outburst. She can have food out so they aren't low on protein and lashing out because of that.

She said that this is something he does especially when it has been explained to him that it’s just not acceptable behavior

That's a pretty big clue there. He's saying "I'm the boss of me, not you." The harder she tries to control, the harder he'll try not to be controlled.

Other options for the towels:

* It's fun.

* He gets a big reaction. For someone relatively powerless (in the bigger world) it can kick ass to realize you do have some power over those more powerful. And could be why it's fun.

* He needs more one-on-one attention than he's getting. Even if she feels she's giving him a lot or "enough". He's reacting from his perspective. He may not need a huge amount more but he needs to ask a huge amount more because he's not getting enough. If someone needs a cup of water a day and only gets 3/4 cup, he's going to pester for water as though he needs 10 gallons.

* He needs more full body movement. More park days. Even if she thinks she gives them a lot, some kids can need way more than one would think!

He sometimes does this with clothes that have just been folded on the couch or dining room table.

Rather than trying to control him, it's better to control herself. Move the folding to another area. Put things away more often so there isn't a huge stack. Put them up high as she folds.

For other actions, humor will help. Especially with boys! whose need for fun can often override their empathy.

But bottom line is, he's needful of something and that's what needs addressed. You can give someone all the aspirin in the world to make the pain in their leg go away, but if the break isn't fixed, the aspirin isn't doing a bit of good. They'll just get ulcers ;-)

He may need ways to feel more powerful and in control of himself. Maybe building things. Maybe a skateboard. Maybe a trampoline.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

Part 2

She said it is important to explain that he communicates extremely well and she is close enough to all of her kids to know when they are needing something so maybe it's not something all that simple or common?

My 17 yo communicates very well and doesn't always know what's wrong. I'm 52 and can't always articulate what's bothering me.

His actions are an attempt at communicating. Stopping the actions doesn't fix the problem.

More attention, more being with them is the answer to most problems. If they need more of her, that solves that. If there are things building up, she can be there to redirect before they get out of control. Though he may need one on one and perhaps she can find little ways to include him in her life and in her husband's life. Maybe one parent can take three kids and another parent can take one kid on the weekends. It is hard with more kids! But it's doable.

It could be the kids are together too much. I suspect that's an easy trap to fall into with larger families. When there are several, they seem to entertain themselves and don't seem to need a parent. But they do. Bringing things she can do in the same room with them should help. Just being more physically present.

just like yelling the F word all around the house when he has been asked to keep the volume down, take it outside or maybe choose a more loving thing to sing? This to her is especially disrespectful because it affects so many other people.

I'd learn how to breathe :-) and let the actions go for now because there's something else going on and trying to control the symptom is just making the disease and the symptoms worse.

Put it this way, at some point he may be interested in rap music or death metal or Grand Theft Auto video games or something that she can't get into. (Though it helps unschooling greatly to put in a huge sincere effort!) And he should have the freedom to explore those in his home. But she also should be able to ask for head phones or for the games to be played when the youngest isn't around. And he will -- really! -- IF he feels she takes his needs seriously and she treats him with kindness and respect. But right now there's a disconnect. He's feeling needful of attention or power or disrespected or something. The swearing, the towels, are not the problem. They're just a symptom.

If they're out somewhere -- like the zoo or grandma's -- they do need to know they'll have to leave if they can't stop. It's not a punishment. It just is.

I think that shift in perspective is particularly hard. It's moving from rules to principles. It isn't enforcing principles instead of rules. It's living by principles of kindness and respect. You can't make someone be respectful -- it just makes them feel disrespected! -- but she can take responsibility for the team and move it elsewhere when they can't fit into the situation yet. If the puppies keep wandering out the door, you don't yell at them. You just shut the door. Rather than controlling the kids, control the environment. If they're failing in an environment, you change the environment.

I said that I honestly don't know. How do you make someone stop using words that you find unacceptable? There has to be an answer to that but I sure don't have it right now.

You can't! Really! If there were an easy answer to getting someone else to do what we want the secret would have been passed around long ago ;-)

Kids react exactly as adults to do to control they disagree with. They act out. That need and desire is the foundation of all protest groups! Even adults find it difficult to find socially acceptable ways to protest the actions of those they strongly disagree with. For a 6 yo it's asking too much.

Because he knows the swearing annoys her, it's a tool of protest. If she stops reacting, it becomes a less effective tool. (Though it may take a while to die out. And if he can feel her tension, if she's just holding it in, he'll sense that. She needs to find ways to let go.)

Ultimately, though, whatever need he's trying to express is where the energy is best directed.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

Part 3

**She said that she thinks this happens in most families at one time or another and that it’s either nipped in the bud quickly or it’s allowed to grow like in her case.**

I was leading up to something in reply to this but jumped up to the next point.

Some parents can use authoritarian parenting and their kids obey. Most assume it's because the parents have some special trick. Or assume their own kids are defective unlike the authoritarian parents' kids.

But whole humans don't like being told what to do. It just isn't in most of our natures. So when we see obedient children it's

1) part of their particular personality, which counters what I just said. ;-) But for some few children, it's just how they were born and not something the parents did (other than supply the genes ;-) It's not transferable through authoritarian parenting! (Some of us whole people are easy going and may even like others to make decisions. But that's not the same as liking someone else to assume control.)

2) part of how they relate to authority. It could be they're fearful (naturally or because of how they've been raised) and feel comfortable having someone else set the boundaries. Or rules feel like love to them.

3) they're good at acting. Most have probably known kids who are obedient around their parents and horrors behind their backs.

4) something else their parents are doing that counteracts the damages from authoritarian parenting. If kids feel like they're loved for who they are despite the rules and punishments, they're likely to react to rules differently than children who feel the punishments and corrections mean their parents don't like who they are and want to change them.

No matter how much a parent feels their actions are out of love, if the child isn't perceiving it that way, then the parent's intentions mean nothing. No matter how much we say we mean something different, if the child is feeling something different from our actions, the actions override the intent.

[Sylvia Toyama]

No matter how much a parent feels their actions are out of love, if the child isn't perceiving it that way, then the parent's intentions mean nothing. No matter how much we say we mean something different, if the child is feeling something different from our actions, the actions override the intent.

****
I think this is a really important aspect for all parents to understand, because when a parent says they're doing something the love a child and, for whatever reason, the child doesn't feel loved, it can really skew how that child grows up to view love.

My mother treated us horribly -- controlling, abusive, patronizing, limiting -- all the while telling us she did this because she loved us. Does that mean that only someone who wants to control me really loves me? Would authoritarian parents want their child to grow up and choose a controlling, abusive spouse who professed love?

For the record, I was one of those outwardly obedient, compliant "good" children (I was also a very accomplished liar) of authoritarian parents, just doing my time until I could leave home and live the way I wanted to. Were my parents ever surprised to find out what I was really like!

[JennyStar]

"Again she said that she thinks this is a dynamic that plays out in most families, I have to agree, it plays out in mine, but my kids are not as stubborn or as high energy."

Sure, if you look at the world at large that is the case, but if we are talking specifically about unschooling, I don't think this is the case at all. It's not a dynamic that plays out in my family. Lest anyone think I don't know what I'm talking about because I have easy children, I do have one of those, but I also have one that isn't so easy going in nature.

Just to point out some things that really stood out for me when reading this post, I'll copy and paste...

she said that the towels are just one example among many of the child knowing better

He is not using the towels for anything productive like drying himself or cleaning.

So she asks me why she needs to put up with this on a daily basis from her children?

How do you make someone stop using words that you find unacceptable?

some of her kids were asked certain things for their safety and they either ignored her completely or they said no.

she thinks this happens in most families at one time or another and that it’s either nipped in the bud quickly or it’s allowed to grow like in her case.

She said that the family discussed consequences because the older kids were being abused by the younger and there was no way for it to stop other than removing them.

She said that there has to be some parents that have a trick or two up their sleeves to keep the family running smoothly

All of these things are about the mother trying to control her kids, to keep them from doing certain behaviors, to make them do things as she sees fit to do them. It's not at all about BEing with your children and helping them navigate situations as they arise, it's all about stopping them from doing things as they arise.

It's a dynamic that she'll have to change if she wants her kids to listen to her. She is having a lot of expectations of her kids, and they aren't meeting them. She needs to stop expecting things from them that they clearly can't comply with at the ages and stages that they are in right now in this moment. If a kid is doing things unsafely and won't stop, then they aren't ready to make those kind of decisions in a solo fashion. The parent needs to be there and help them navigate and gear them towards something safer.

She is still seeing her kids as other than, when the ideal should be partnership. She isn't their partner right now.

[JennyStar]

Joyce, I loved this part sooooo much that I posted it on my blog... I hope that's okay with you! I love that when I'm thinking exactly the same thing you are, you say it so much more succinctly than I do!