Spitting and hitting...

[Karen N]

My older ds, L, is just 4 - i have a 1 year old too.

L has been doing this a while now - he kinda of razz spits at me a lot - his dad and baby too. I've tried to look for triggers but often there is none - like i was cuddled up with him yesterday watching a film and he just turned round and did it for no apparent reason. (obviously he has a reason for it but its just not an obvious trigger which i can work to avoid) He hits loads too for any slight reason when things arent quite the way he wants or again just kinda out of the blue cos thats what he feels like doing - he is spit razzing lots of times every day and hits me lots every day - its not a hard hit its kind of a casual slapping and doesnt hurt and the spitting is not a big vicious full on spit more like hissing bubbles through his teeth at me - but it is still unpleasant to be sprayed in the face in this manner!

Anyway - to me the whole thing is like chinese torture - you know the drip drip of repetitive tap - that feeling of slowly going insane. I realised that a big part of it was because i feel i have to in some way get him to stop it - like i HAVE TO - its my job as a mum to get him to see how unpleasant his behaviour is and MAKE it stop and that actually i am completely powerless to do so as i dont want to use consequences etc - all i can do is tell him to stop and explain for the 1000x why it is not nice. Half the time i dont even think he realises he's doing it - its just like this habit he's got into and when i say no or stop he often will immediately say sorry as if to say whoops i've done it again i forgot.

Anyway im bored and tired and totally bogged down with responding to these things. I try and encourage him to do it outside in the garden to give him an outlet but he doesnt want to. I feel like this is a phase he's going through and i'm sure it will pass, but somehow i need to get past feeling like i NEED to MAKE him stop it NOW and that i'm a bad parent cos i cant achieve that - cos that is what is really sending my stress levels through the roof! I feel like if i was doing it 'right', he wouldnt do these things.

My mum was here the other day - it always takes me a day or 2 to recover from her visits cos i then see L and myself through her eyes - she is very 'children should be seen and not heard' type and constantly reminds me that 'he needs more discipline' etc. When he spits hits or shouts 'shut up' at me (which is his other new constant phrase) she looked horrified and disgusted and i feel ashamed and embarrassed.

So can i just respond to it with a simple "no/stop, what do you want" in the calm mannner of this is what is right now, so be it - or do i have to be ensuring he stops, impressing upon him how innappropriate it is every time - cos really truly, i cant be bothered anymore. I dont see the point really.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- i am completely powerless to do so as i dont want to use consequences etc - all i can do is tell him to stop and explain for the 1000x why it is not nice.-=-

Consequences don't need to be "used." You mean you don't want to use punishments. You've tied your own hands with rules, it seems, though. IF his spitting makes you angry, then say DON'T in the honest tone of disgust and anger. Don't gently say "no, stop; what do you want.

If the consequence of spitting at someone is no different from the consequence of kissing or hugging gently, then he's receiving no useful feedback. The "consequences" are that the mother isn't really communicating with him person to person.

-=cos really truly, i cant be bothered anymore. I dont see the point really.-=-

Do you want to give him up for adoption? Would your mother raise him?
Because truly, if you can't be bothered anymore to help him get along in the world maybe he should move on to another family.

I'm guessing you've decided in the last few seconds that you really do want to keep him. Then you need to see the depth of responsibility you have as his mother, and see it as being his partner if you can.

http://sandradodd.com/partners/child

Of everything I saw in your post, the big factor is that when he was two or three you had another baby. He was displaced as the baby. Maybe he needs some more babying. Maybe you could hold him sometimes, goo-goo him and tell him you miss when he was a little baby, and tell him stories about how little his hands and feet were, or how glad you were when you had him and became a mother. Let him escape into that baby comfort sometimes.

Sandra

[Karen N]

I do say it in disgust and anger, exasperation, desperation, frustration, sometimes i break down and cry cos i just cant take him hitting me, spitting at me or telling me to shut up another time - i feel desperate - sometimes i do fantasise about running away, i would never ever do this, but sometimes i fantasise to escape this frustrating, confusing reality i seem to have.

I think i'm hitting just complete despair and thats were the - i just cant be bothered doing a 'big' reaction to this thing (hitting, spitting saying shut up) yet again when it is having no effect whatsoever - so why not just accept it and sigh and say - its just his new thing he'll grow out of it. I think i get to the point were i just DO NOT have the emotional energy to give him a reaction every time - i am so so DRAINED at times - he is not just doing these things a couple of times a day it is all day long - a couple of times an hour at least. I am desperate to understand - i feel like 'get' radical unschooling - i have no prob with bedtimes, food, tv etc - its great to be able to give him those freedoms and all that but obviously on some level i am NOT getting it - thats why i come back here time and time again and bare my sensitive soul because i am a very sensitive person and it takes a lot for me to post these things here cos i know, there will be no sympathy - but thats not what i want i post because i'm depserate and i want to handle this without having to take him to a psychologist or something - because i know i will be giving parenting classes about how to control him etc and thats not what i want either.

I'm trying desperately to understand - i am spending every moment i can with him doing his thing, i am trying to baby him as much as i can but he isnt really that into being babied to be honest. I'm reading and re-reading articles from your site. I'm trying to find the answer, the epiphany that will get me through.

We have had some wonderful moments since i've been posting here - about 3 mths now and i can see improvements in my ability to handle things and in L - i'm getting loads more 'I love yous' and on the whole things have improved. I think sometimes i get into a vicious cylce with him - i am particularly exhausted at the mo and maybe he is really sensitive to my feelings or something and reacts to them and because i'm exhausted i dont react as well and then that makes him worse and then that makes me feel even worse and on and on - maybe if i try and be positive in the face of the hitting etc it will break us out of it.

I want to be able to come back here one day and explain to someone in my position now, how it all made sense - i dont want to be asking questions i want to be able to tell people how good it is and how it all makes sense now.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- i'm getting loads more 'I love yous' and on the whole things have improved.-=-

That's the important thing.
If you're getting warm (closer to your goal) than focus there!

I'm wondering, if he really is unaware that he's doing it, or doing it kind of out of habit, what if you put tic marks somewhere--not on the calendar in a "permanent" place, but just on a paper taped to the wall in an inconspicuous place or something. Don't march over and put it and say "SEE?" but just on your own, make a note of how many times.

Maybe it won't help; depends on him and you, personalities, whatever all else. But with some kids it might. And it might help you to see that it really or is not all the time, or really is or is not getting better.

Maybe you could say "That's the third time this morning; what's the deal?" or "Thanks for using words and not spit today. I never did understand the spit." and smile and laugh it off gently, maybe.

Sandra

[Meredith]

Spitting and hitting are two different things - be careful about running them together in your mind and making them the same. That just confuses your ability to find solutions.

Spitting is pretty common around his age. Find him places and ways and things that are Okay to spit. That way you're not just saying "no" you're giving him a "yes." Buy a watermelon and let him spit seeds to his hearts delight outside - or out the window, or into a trash can. Find him other things to spit. Gum, maybe. See if he has the coordination to blow bubbles with gum, it uses the same muscles groups. Find a guy who can hawk great whopping lugies and have him teach your guy. Buy drinking straws and suggest he blow bubbles in cups of milk, soda, whatever. Put a big vinyl table cloth down and stand back! Let him play with some in the bath tub and blow as hard as he can. Make a target and teach him to blow spitwads through the straw.The more "yesses" you can give him, the easier time he'll have hearing the "nos" when its the Wrong time and place and way to spit. If all he's hearing is "no" he's stopped hearing it long ago.

If he's hitting out of frustration, look for ways to minimize his frustration. What sorts of things set him off? Do you need help figuring that out?

If he's hitting sort of casually, that's more like spitting. There's something in the motion that he likes, maybe. Find things for him to hit, ways for him to swing his arms in big ways.

Rereading your post, you say you try to make him go outside to do things, but he doesn't want to - go with him. Be a part of the fun. Otherwise you're just sending him away. Spit seeds with him. Get some tennis rackets or a baseball bat and play casual games of ball with him. Catch him up by the hands and swing him around, or find him things to climb, things that take a lot of arm action. Get a chin up bar for the house, find a ceiling joist and put an eyebolt in it for a rope to climb - I'm not kidding! You can always hang a plant or basket swing from it later. Don't just say 'climb this' though, say "how high can you climb? show me!"

Maybe you've been thinking in terms of "redirecting" him - thinK instead of finding more, better ways to meet those needs. To do that, you'll need to be right there with him, actively encouraging him to do those things and celebrating his marvelous physicality. When you're doing that, "no" and "stop" will mean something, rather than being background noise. Beyond that, he'll have better self control - he won't be all balled up inside with these weird physical urges. To him, it likely feels like he doesn't have much control over these behaviors. When he's able to do them, encouraged to do them a Lot, he'll develop that control.

[Meredith]

I'm just seeing the "shut up" thing. If he's saying it a lot, its a good idea to look at how and how much you are saying to him. He may be overwhelmed with your words. That may not take many words - when Mo (almost 8, now) was younger, she used to say "shush" very harshly. That was her way of saying "too many words". I learned to speak in sound bites and do a lot of non-verbal communication, which meant a lot of me looking and listening to her and trying to understand what was going on with her without asking. It was challenging at first - Ray was a really really talkative kid, so I got used to being able to have long conversations with him. Then Mo came along - "shush!" Wow, talk about a shock.

Tone mattered. Mo didn't like to be "told" much of anything, but there were tones of voice that shut her down instantly. A lecturing tone - "shush!" even softer forms of the lecturing tone, that I thought of as "information giving" could trigger a "shush!" Any of the familiar tones that adults use with children were likely to bring about a "shush!" It made a big difference when I talked to Mo in the same tones I'd use with an adult friend.

I definitely got the "hairy eyeball" from friends and family when Mo "shushed" them, and cut back on contact with those who weren't able to deal with her. A couple good friends were willing to ask me about my rationale for "allowing" her to do that, and even learned to communicate with Mo.

It didn't last forever. A couple years ago she started saying "would you please stop talking now?" Her "word limit" has gone up substantially! She's just not a chatterbox and doesn't often like it when people chatter at her.

[Karen N]

Thank you again for your responses!!

After posting my second post the other day i did have some success in getting him to spit with me in the garden - we used glasses of water and had 'how far can you spit it' games, he liked it for a bit and then it quickly turned into how far you can throw the cups of water which was fun too but not exactly getting out the spitting urges! ha! I will definately try your other suggestions, Meredith, although all the talk of lugies (or gollies as i would call them) made me a little queasy - ick!! lol!!! We did the straw thing after i read here and he kinda liked that - so as always i will keep plugging away with your suggestions and hopefully watch things unfold and improve! I probably was thinking in terms of re-directing rather than full on encouraging him to do these things and joining in the fun.

The shut up/shush thing is interesting - he does do it in response to similar things you mentioned but probably even more so - its sometimes simply because he doesnt want to be spoken to right that moment even if i'm asking him an innocent question in a normal voice like - 'would you like something to eat?' Theres not always any way to predict it really - again it just seems like a habit hes got into or almost as if he likes saying it -maybe it makes him feel powerful or something - i dont know - i will try and think more about whats triggering it Which is where the tick chart thing could become useful as i could write triggers or lack thereof on it to see if i can see a pattern or whatever - thanks sandra too! Excuse my outburst of despondency!

We actually had a lovely day yesterday so that was fab after getting into one of those negative zones the day or so before - the more enthused and animated i can be about flying airplanes and firing missiles round the garden the better life goes - lol!!

[Meredith]

Something to think about wrt "triggers" is that some things can build up over time so that what you end up seeing is the "last straw" so to speak.

Another unschooling mom, Danielle, suggests that if you're keeping a journal of negative sorts of behaviors that its also a good idea to keep track of positives, too. Having both can help you see patterns more clearly, sometimes - and just as importantly, its good for you to be looking at all the ways your child is wonderful and sweet, and not just totting up the less stellar moments.

[Karen N]

thanks for the tips Meredith - i like that idea - I've just bought some index cards today that i want to use for writing down useful parenting quotes on to keep me going day to day - i was thinking of using some for writing positive things on about L to help me keep a positive attitude toward him when he is being - well - less than positive! :0)