Spoiled kids?

[Karen N]

I've read the spoilt children article on sandras site and lots about how you cant spoil a child with too much love etc and i get it, and have always had a dislike for the label spoilt.

With this in mind i was wondering what your take is on the 'only child' thing - were some maybe lack an awareness of other peoples needs and seem not to appreciate stuff into adulthood - i'm lacking time to explain this properly here but i'm hoping someone kinda gets what i'm on about from that. But you know the type of thing people are usually talking about when they refer to spoilt people or whatever.

I can think of 1 only child i know who is now 30 and is very hypersensitive and everyone really has to watch what they say around her in case she takes offense - easily offended, but who is really opinionated and not afraid to offend others and can be very harsh and judgemental - on the other hand she is very close to her mum and i like that about how being an only has affected her.

I also know a 21 year old who is the oldest of 2 siblings who has been very much 'spoilt' in terms of her parents always doing everything for her and still rushing about around her now trying to solve her issues for her - and although lovely in many ways she can be really unaware of other peoples feelings and needs - she doesnt in anyway mean to be like that she is just, well, unaware, for want of a better word!

I also cant get away from this feeling that it was good for my eldest to have a younger sibling come on the scene because before we would always if at all possible do what he wanted to do, but now there is an equal person on the scene (younger brother) with equally pressing needs who wont just go along with the older one all the time, so the need for compromise and appreciating meeting his needs too arises.

Any thoughts to help me clear the fog in my head on this issue?

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- easily offended, but who is really opinionated and not afraid to offend others and can be very harsh and judgemental -=-

-=-and although lovely in many ways she can be really unaware of other peoples feelings and needs-=-

I have a clue for your mystery. I don't think it's a birth order or onliness situation. I think they're both lacking in interpersonal intelligence. And when a person is that way it's wonderfully GOOD for them to have a parent or friend or spouse who will help them negotiate the social world.

If a child can't walk, nobody says he's spoiled if his parents push him around in a wheelchair and help him go to the bathroom.

If someone is socially disabled ("differently abled" ) she needs help too!!

http://sandradodd.com/multipleintelligences

[Sylvia Toyama]

I'm not sure what comprises the fog in your head, but a few thought occur to me.

I haven't found that being an only necessarily means a child will grow up without consideration for others, nor does having siblings guarantee a child will be more generous with others. The most compassionate, generous person I have ever known is an only child. It's no mystery really, since he comes from generous, compassionate people.

I'm an oldest child, and spent much of my childhood torn between resenting and loving my siblings. My Mom worked full-time and I watched them from the time I was 9 until we all hit our teens (they're 1 & 4 yrs younger than me). In terms of everyday life as a child, having them come on the scene didn't improve my quality of life at all. I resented that, because of them, I couldn't do what I wanted much of the time. And at the same time, I love them fiercely to this day -- even when we disagree.

I can see where sometimes having only one child makes it easier for parents to prioritize needs, and when the parent isn't good at that, it can result in a child who gets things his way all the time. I've also seen -- and lived -- where having more than one child only makes things worse.

For me, it's about how well the adults involved respond to a child's needs, and how adept the parents are at juggling the needs of more than one child. The best way to help a child become compassionate is to model compassion and kindness.

When I first met my dh -- the aforementioned compassionate only child -- I wondered how any child survives all the rainy, lonely days of childhood (not to mention 2 yr moves in a military family like his) without siblings. Don't they get lonely? Yeah, we fought as kids, but I think the real value in having siblings is someone who knew me when -- someone else for the reality check, the memories.

If parent think think that having a second sibling will force a first child to not become *spoiled* that strikes me as a cop-out. Making the second child the cause of an older child hearing *no*? I don't see that idea creating the kind of relationship I want for my kids.

[Karen N]

Sandra what you said makes a lot of sense and i can see the parent transmission thing quite clearly too.

I haven't found that being an only necessarily means a child will grow up without consideration for others, nor does having siblings guarantee a child will be more generous with others.

Yes i totally agree - i could have clarifyed my own thinking a lot more clearly but i just dont get much time to actually write anything - so i just try to quickly ask stuff when i hit an obstacle in my thinknig! And i definately agree that its how the parents are that counts - their attitudes etc.

If parent think think that having a second sibling will force a first child to not become *spoiled* that strikes me as a cop-out. Making the second child the cause of an older child hearing *no*? I don't see that idea creating the kind of relationship I want for my kids.

Yes i agree - i guess thats why i feel uncomfortable with those thoughts and feelings when i have them and why i try and get away from that feeling. And it certainly wasnt the reason for having another child - its just quite striking that ds2 is the only person really in ds1's life that doesnt shout 'how high?' when ds1 says 'JUMP!' ....bit of an exageration (sorry - crap spelling!!) but you get the gist of my meaning. So through him he will be learning more about the art of co-operation, compromise and getting along. Although as ds1 has got older (hes 4 now) and i've learnt more, we do loads more 'finding a solution' stuff where we can all be happy with something - he's so good at it - its sweet!!!

I think what i'm kind of getting at is that with ds1 we have always tried to give him what he wants, even when it felt like bending over backwards and twisting myself into a thousand uncomfortable positions (metophorically speaking) saying no to him has always felt like i was being selfish and if i could in anyway do what he wanted i would - like my own needs (whatever they are - maybe for a bit more sleep and rest) are usually not much of a consideration and havent been since he was born - i'm grateful for anything i get (a cup of tea and some chocolate in silence etc) - i mean truly grateful. I have been so very drained at times have had some depression partly (but only partly) due to just constantly giving out and not getting a break. I felt for a long time that my needs were not legitimate somehow.

Coming here (RUN) has helped with the idea of finding ways to meet my own needs in ways that dont take away from my kids needs - its nice to have the reassurance that i am allowed to have needs and that is ok to try and meet them too!! Its also helpful to feel ok about giving so much and not worry about 'spoiling' them as some of the tension giving and giving created, was a fear of it somehow being wrong! I wonder if now i feel i can have needs and try and find ways to meet them, that this is healthier than my all out.....searching for right word...maybe martydom? Martrydom is nearly the right word but not quite.

I have so gone off on a tangent here! I suppose i was kinda asking 'are you really positively sure i cant spoil them if i do what they want all the time?' I think i read something and a bit of doubt crept in...that happens a lot and i can usually tackle it on my own but sometimes i need a bit of help from people here!

Thank you!! :0)

[Alison MacNamara]

just to add my two cents...
I took a university class on sociology of families a year ago, and some fellow students addressed the only child vs. siblings bit in a presentation. According to their research, generally, only children are more intelligent and children with sibs are more socialized at primary school ages. However, it no longer had much of an impact into adulthood.

As an interesting aside, their research also suggested that sibling relationships mediate health and wellbeing more so than any other family relationships. Even having a sibling living nearby positively affected wellbeing, regardless of whether one was in regular communication with one's sib.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

But is the 30 yo hypersensitive because she's an only? You're seeing two differences (only and hypersensitivity) and supposing the first as the cause of the second. (The reverse might be true! Maybe she was hypersensitive as an infant and the mom decided one was as much as she could handle!)

It's common to make those extrapolations. Two out-of-the-norms seems like they must be tied together but it's not a safe conclusion to draw. A much larger sample of onlies and sensitive people is needed to draw conclusions from!

(I have an only and she takes others' needs into consideration quite well. So there's a 2nd piece of data to add to your collection and it contradicts your theory ;-)

** her parents always doing everything for her and still rushing about around her now trying to solve her issues for her **

Rather than being her partner to help her, it sounds like the parents want her to stay a dependent child.

I've seen parents -- usually moms -- do that. They have a need to be needed. When they see someone tending to a need they jump in and do it for them. They think they're being nice but it's actually a form of control. Their self worth is tied up in other people needing them.

Part of unschooling is helping kids in *their* quest for competence. It means giving them as much help as *they* want. In that context, when we do something for them, it feels like a gift rather than a way to keep us each in our roles.

** I also cant get away from this feeling that it was good for my eldest to have a younger sibling come on the scene because before we would always if at all possible do what he wanted to do **

Kids have a hard time meeting their own needs. They're fairly powerless in this world. To be their partners to help them navigate the world, it's often helpful for parents to delay their own needs.

But that shouldn't mean pretending we don't have needs. It's hard from someone to earn respect when they don't respect themselves which is what happens if a parent sacrifices their needs for the child. It can be tricky when making the transition to respecting kids to find the right balance between setting needs aside and bringing them into consideration. One help might be to picture how far you'd go for a friend.

[Karen N]

Alison - i liked the research you quoted it was interesting - thanks!

Hi Joyce...

But is the 30 yo hypersensitive because she's an only? You're seeing two differences (only and hypersensitivity) and supposing the first as the cause of the second. (The reverse might be true! Maybe she was hypersensitive as an infant and the mom decided one was as much as she could handle!)

It's common to make those extrapolations. Two out-of-the-norms seems like they must be tied together but it's not a safe conclusion to draw. A much larger sample of onlies and sensitive people is needed to draw conclusions from!

(I have an only and she takes others' needs into consideration quite well. So there's a 2nd piece of data to add to your collection and it contradicts your theory ;-)

Yes, I had thought that myself about the whole cause and effect thing, people using one piece of info to explain another that is not necessarily related but rather maybe just a convienient explanation. Sorry i didnt explain my thinking very well i was trying to just write quickly cos of time and children!

I also know that being an only does not automatically mean a person is going to be self-centred. Its not really *my* theory though, that an only would end up spoilt, its more of a common presumption to make - lots of people kind of presume it - maybe like an urban myth or something - i dont mean that i think its true because its a commonly held belief - just that its not *my* personal theory. I can think of other people who would contradict the 'onlys are selfish' theories too. And i even thought of you as i wrote it as i know you have just the one daughter and thought she must not be self centred etc or else you wouldnt be here trying to help others understand unschooling!

I think i just read something that brought up big fears for me and then i made other connections. It was more that i read something and it triggered off a fear reaction really - its like what if i dont quite get this radical unschooling thing right and it all goes horribly wrong somehow - like i know it works when you properly get it and do it 'right' because you and many other people here and on the lists would not be so passionate about it but what if you are all just wonderful people and i just get it all wrong and mess up?!

But that shouldn't mean pretending we don't have needs. It's hard from someone to earn respect when they don't respect themselves which is what happens if a parent sacrifices their needs for the child. It can be tricky when making the transition to respecting kids to find the right balance between setting needs aside and bringing them into consideration. One help might be to picture how far you'd go for a friend.

This is helpful - i do find such a balance tricky! Also not too sure about the friend analogy - just because i would give so much more to my child than i would to a friend, if a friend drained every last ounce of energy out of me and woke me up every hour of the night for 2 years i dont think i would be their friend for long! lol!! Nor if they started hitting me, biting me and spitting at me and the like - all stuff which has been an issue with my eldest in the past. I would not think a friendship like that worth fighting for but obviously with my child it is totally different. I think the friend analogy is good for helping with how you would speak to your kid and make requests and stuff though, i dont know, maybe i misunderstood, - maybe you can enlighten me a bit further! :0)

[Joyce Fetteroll]

** I think the friend analogy is good for helping with how you would speak to your kid and make requests and stuff though, i dont know, maybe i misunderstood **

No, you understood. There really isn't a decent analogy that encompasses the parent child relationship we talk about here. There are few relationships where one partner is so powerless and the other partner is using their power to help them. Mentor covers some aspects. Friend covers some aspects.

Maybe rather than thinking of the child as the needy friend, think of each instance as a friend making a request. If a friend woke you up at night, you'd assume it was important! A child waking up a parent has a need just like the friend. *But* if a child's waking up a parent repeatedly, it would help if the parent stepped back and tried to figure out the root of the need to find a better solution!

** Its not really *my* theory though, that an only would end up spoilt, its more of a common presumption to make **

Yes, sorry, I can get sloppy with my pronouns. English really needs a generalized "you". Like "you guys" and "yunz" and "y'all" ;-)

** its like what if i dont quite get this radical unschooling thing right and it all goes horribly wrong somehow **

While Sandra does make a good point that kids don't give parents forever to get unschooling, once someone is practicing unschooling to the best of their understanding, parents do have years to observe and tweak and fix what's not working and improve their understanding. If you're observant and responding to needs, if you come and ask for a fresh view and fresh ideas when you can't figure something out, if you keep working at understanding, you won't suddenly have a 17 yo who looks at a job application and says "What's that?" ;-)

Unlike school, unschooling isn't a single thing that can be set in place to run until the children leave. It's a set of principles and it takes effort to figure out how to make them work for each child.