Talking to spouse about unschooling

[Margaret Yoder]

So, my husband and I actually got a chance to talk about our parenting issues yesterday. We were driving to marriage counseling, and we talked about it on the way and again in the session.

I'm trying to RU our dd, 3 years and 2 months old. I have been RUing her from the start (evolved from Continuum). DH is somewhat supportive but has a lot of fears. He fears that we're spoiling her, because she's somewhat spirited, and we don't force her to sit still in restaurants, at the dinner table, at church.

I feel constantly judged by him - when he gets home, sometimes, it's like a dark cloud coming over the sun. I've been having fun with dd, but then he walks in, and suddenly every little "infraction" she commits, I see his face darken and I can tell he's spinning a narrative where things are completely out of control forever, we never have another restaurant dinner in peace, she throws all our valuables at the windows, et cetera. And in talking to him about it, I see that he really does, on some level, believe these things. He said as much! She will never learn to sit still, unless we make her.

I was trying to tell him that even punitively controlled three-year-olds often behave this way, she's So Very Normal, but he's not convinced. Can you tell we have no experience being around little kids? We don't know anyone else in our social group with small children and never have.

The very few times that my husband has given me a whole-hearted affirmation that I'm being a great mom, have been when we've been around some conventional parents and their conventionally raised little ones, and seen what a trainwreck that is, compared to our daily life. So perhaps I've partially answered my own question, if only I knew where to go to see other preschoolers in their natural habitats.

When have your children been able to sit through a meal? How old have they been when they no longer impulsively attempt to throw dad's iphone, for example. I posted a question like this in a different part of the forum, ("at what age does it get a bit easier?") but that question got lost in the resulting conversation.

Thanks!!

[Meredith]

He fears that we're spoiling her, because she's somewhat spirited, and we don't force her to sit still in restaurants, at the dinner table, at church.

Maybe you are, if you're not helping her to behave appropriately in public. Or maybe she's not ready to go to so many restaurants or sit with the grownups at dinner, and needs to stay in the toddler room at church. There's an older custom where children don't eat with adults - maybe as a kind of compromise with your husband you can talk about that, about the fact that at one time it was culturally normal to keep kids away from adult meals until they were older. If you want to eat out, eat places which are kid friendly - that would let you both see other families deal with little kids, too. At home, make kid meals separate from the adult dinner and make the adult dinner a time you and he can connect and you can listen to his thoughts and feelings without putting them down. If you're feeling judged, he may be feeling judged as well. 

[Margaret Yoder]

Hi Meredith,

Yeah, she's absolutely not ready. Every once in a while we try again, and so far, no luck with restaurants. And there's no babysitting or toddler room at our church, a house church of about 25 people with no other children under the age of 13. It's just me, following her around, engaging her with toys, crafts, or books; occasionally hearing a few words of the worship service. Those are the easy weeks, on the difficult weeks I have to take her out after 10 or 15 minutes because she's just too rambunctious and disruptive.

Here's something you wrote in another thread. "One of the things I really like about many of the radical unschooling discussion lists (groups, boards, whatever!) is the focus on specific, detailed stories of real people. That’s valuable because it gives me the chance to see what’s similar and what’s different to my own life."

Oh, I really really want some of that. 

Can anyone help me with this specific part of my question: "When have your children been able to sit through a meal? How old have they been when they no longer impulsively attempt to throw dad's iphone, for example. I posted a question like this in a different part of the forum, ("at what age does it get a bit easier?") but that question got lost in the resulting conversation."

Thanks!

[Paula Shillington]

With regard to your husband I can really relate.

We went through the struggles of Asperger's diagnosis which really questions your marriage values and puts a strain on the family. So my husband knows what we went through with that. He also knows how good homeschooling is for E (10yo - homeschooling for 3 years)....even though he didn't support me initially. So you would think there would be some trust and support when we started unschooling at Christmas. But alas once again there is only a wariness, interspersed with that male dominance that has to show up every day.

I think my husband, being bought up by a very overbearing father, needs to feel that role of dominance. I have been teaching my son to ignore with respect. I tell him that it is all about the hubby and not him. Don't take it personally!

I think I read in a John Holt book that the 3year old behaviour is just her trying to see how many of her own decisions she can make like an adult does. When a child is treated like child and more like a respected person they don't need to do this anymore. However with husbands like ours it's very hard to keep up that consistent respect. That's what I find anyway. I guess I am lucky that my son is old enough that I can teach him to ignore. But the unschooling really has increased his maturity level by 1 or 2 years and it's only been 3months. Best of Luck

[Joyce Fetteroll]

*** When have your children been able to sit through a meal? How old have they been when they no longer impulsively attempt to throw dad's iphone, for example. ***

The answer to that won't help, though. When other kids could sit won't make your daughter sit sooner! She'll be able to sit still when she can sit still.

I guess what you want are extreme stories of high energy kids who are grown and capable of sitting through  a meal at a restaurant.

Maybe this will help him see what's really going on:

It only seems like all other 3 yos can sit still in restaurants. That's because the parents who have 3 yos who can't sit through a meal don't take them to restaurants! It makes for a stressful time for the parent so the parents aren't willing to go through that. He's only seeing the less energetic 3 yos. All the energetic 3 yos are at home. Or at Chucky Cheese. Or at McDonald's with a playspace.

If a parent does manage to turn an energetic 3 yo into a sit still 3 yo it's not because the child is now calm. It's because there's a high price to pay for that "calm": the child is terrified. The naturally-mellow 3 yo and the afraid-to-move 3 yo look similar on the outside when in public, but the inside is completely different. We've all encountered kids who were obedient around their parents but were holy terrors out of their sight.

People who are treated as though they're doing the best they can, who have someone who respects their strengths and makes up for their weaknesses, grow up into well adjusted, competent people. That's because it's in our nature to want to grow in competence as we're able.

There's a great TED talk by Daniel Pink: Drive

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html

I tend to talk in terms of principles so hopefully someone will come along with some stories that illustrate what I'm saying :-)

Joyce

[Margaret Yoder]

Hi Paula,

Luckily it's not that bad with my husband! It's not a question of male dominance,  it's more that he's stuck parenting in fear (and exhaustion and general depletedness, like me) rather than joyfully and confidently. When he's at his best he can be pretty respectful of her, but doubts creep in and get overwhelming.

Thanks Joyce: I also tend to think and talk in the abstract (if that's part of what you meant by principles) and what you wrote is precisely what I was trying to tell him - it's so helpful to have it written down, so I can forward it to him. Thank you so very much for laying it out so clearly, as you always do.

I'm really trying to get us scheduled to go to an unschoolers conference this fall. I'm hoping that can really help flesh it out for us.

We do have one other unschooling family in our town. I need to get closer with them. My MIL has poisoned the well for my husband in relation to them, she despises their laid back attitude. I once told her, "Well, at least they have a peaceful home." Her face took on a very peculiar expression as she very slowly and carefully said "Sometimes the price is too high."  She's been talking them down to my dh since before we moved here and met them. He once said to me, in horror, "Their youngest son didn't learn to read until he was 6!" I'm positive that was a direct quote from her. LOL - that's a whole nother story I guess!

[Margaret Yoder]

One other thing: Joyce wrote:

"The answer to that won't help, though. When other kids could sit won't make your daughter sit sooner! She'll be able to sit still when she can sit still."

Maybe I can ask my question so it's less about timing, and more about process. I wrote above "And in talking to him about it, I see that he really does, on some level, believe these things. He said as much! She will never learn to sit still, unless we make her."

Maybe what he is wondering is, how does a child learn to sit still, without being "taught", forced. There may be no real answer, other than, wait and see! She will, eventually!

[Meredith]

Can anyone help me with this specific part of my question: "When have your children been able to sit through a meal?

2 and 3 ;)

You're right in that's it's more helpful to ask about process - those numbers aren't really useful to you are they?

Mo was able to sit through a meals at an elegant restaurant at 2 because my favorite aunty would call ahead and make reservations for a table close to the door, allowing one of the adults to slip outside periodically with the 2yo so she didn't have to sit through hours of dull grown-up conversation. But Mo's a pretty active kid - I've seen other very young children sitting still for much longer and staying clean for much longer than my high-speed hoyden. Personality and temperament are factors in this kind of thing. We never required Mo sit at a meal at home, so there's no data on that topic. She joined us when she felt like it, and still does (she's 10) - but usually not to eat. She has a minuscule appetite, so if she's eaten at all during the day she's not usually hungry by dinner time. But she'd sometimes join us for the company and at 4, she was able to set the table if we had guests and had lovely company manners. To her, eating a meal is a social thing more than a food thing.

Ray could sit through "family" (commune) meals every night when he was 3, eat everything on his plate, ask nicely for seconds (and thirds and fourths), and take his plate to the sink when he was done. In extreme contrast to Mo, he had a massive appetite - food was the only time he slowed down. I don't think we took Ray anywhere more sophisticated than a pizza place until he was much older - in the absence of a continuous stream of munchies, we knew he'd have a hard time sitting around. To Ray, meals were largely about food and that's still true to an extent, now that he's 18. Currently he's experimenting with his diet and doesn't eat what we eat - so he doesn't trouble to eat with us, even though he's very social in general. To him, a meal is about the food.  

>>How old have they been when they no longer impulsively attempt to throw dad's iphone

Mo's not a thrower, so that has never been an issue. Ray... we learned not to give him expensive things when he was small. He regularly broke things - threw them, dropped them, smashed them against or with other things. Some of that was impulse, some was anger, some was curiosity, and some was that he "didn't know his own strength". We weren't unschooling then, so I can say with confidence that punishing him didn't help. Giving him sturdy things helped. 

[Meredith]

Maybe what he is wondering is, how does a child learn to sit still, without being "taught", forced. There may be no real answer, other than, wait and see! She will, eventually!

She will if she has a reason to. Punishing kids "gives them a reason" - to avoid punishment, but adults actively choose to do things without the need for punishment hanging over their heads. It can help to think about the reasons adults choose to do things like sit quietly for an extended period of time. With meals and other social rituals (like church) a big part of the reason has to do with connecting with other people. 

[Nance Confer]

No, I can't remember that far back. Mine are 17 and 18 now. So sometimes between then and now. But it doesn't really matter because they are not your daughter. And what is the thinking behind eating out so much? Or going to events that require sitting? Can't all that wait?

Maybe your local library or Y or book store or gym or park or something -- look around -- have events or just play times for younger kids. Free-range kids, not kids in school. They don't have to be homeschool events for you and your husband to see what kids look like out in the world. There is a wide range of activity/ability/noise/interest/etc. Some kids are shy and some are outgoing. Some are interested in the event and some want to wander. Etc. Mothers hover at various levels of intensity. The other mothers whisper either about too much supervision or not enough. :)

To me it sounds like you need fewer adult-centered activities and more 3-yo-appropriate activities. And to realize that most of the other parents are figuring all this stuff out too. :)

Nance

 

 

Can anyone help me with this specific part of my question: "When have your children been able to sit through a meal? How old have they been when they no longer impulsively attempt to throw dad's iphone, for example. I posted a question like this in a different part of the forum, ("at what age does it get a bit easier?") but that question got lost in the resulting conversation."

Thanks!

[Nance Confer]

Well, I can't say I'd want to be that unschooling family if that's the attitude they are going to have to defend against. But if you can reach out in a positive way, it might help you and DH let go of a few notions. And learn how to listen to yourselves more and his mother less.

And, as I recall, 6 was the "normal" age to learn to read before the NCLB insanity took over the country and every 3-year-old in the country was shoved into preschool.

Nance

We do have one other unschooling family in our town. I need to get closer with them. My MIL has poisoned the well for my husband in relation to them, she despises their laid back attitude. I once told her, "Well, at least they have a peaceful home." Her face took on a very peculiar expression as she very slowly and carefully said "Sometimes the price is too high."  She's been talking them down to my dh since before we moved here and met them. He once said to me, in horror, "Their youngest son didn't learn to read until he was 6!" I'm positive that was a direct quote from her. LOL - that's a whole nother story I guess!

[Meredith]

With meals and other social rituals (like church) a big part of the reason has to do with connecting with other people. 

Adding on to what I wrote earlier - kids don't tend to connect the same way adults do. They're less inclined to sit and chat and more to be up and doing, so they need other reasons to be still and quiet. Depending on the child, that might be the thrill of getting to do something grown-up, or it might involve some make-believe - let's pretend we're princesses at a grand feast! - or it might include bringing a book or a quiet project like coloring.

[Caren]

As much as you can, be very, very kind to your husband. Ask him what he'd like right when he gets home - some people need a quiet transition time from work to home, and if he comes in to chaos or loudness, he's not getting that need met.

There is a certain amount of acceptance that has to happen when you have kids - acceptance that your life is NEVER going to be like it was before kids. Wanting your kids to be like little adults when you eat seems like a wish for things to be as they were without kids - calm, quiet, able to connect through conversation. Most real kids don't act like mini-adults; they act like kids, which means they're loud, move a lot, don't have patience for adult conversations, etc.  Acceptance for your daughter's little-kidness is important! But that's not something you can force your husband to have. What you CAN do is make his life as sweet as possible. This isn't something I recommend to parents a lot, because "get away from the kids" can be so all-encompassing in our society, and harmful to relationships - BUT, in your case, maybe every other week you can get a sitter and take your husband out for a quiet meal, if that's something he's missing with you. Connect with him as much as you can. A LOT of marriages go through stress when kids reach 2 & 3 years old; the kids' needs are so big, and so many. Adults who didn't get their little-kid needs met have a hard time giving as much as a child needs - or, supporting their spouse in giving that much, when their spouse used to give to them!

A book that might help you understand "typical" young child development is "Your Three-Year-Old" by Louise Bates Ames. This is NOT an unschooling book, so I wouldn't recommend that your husband read it! But the whole series has a lot of information about stages most kids go through. They were written a while ago, but I found them invaluable when my oldest was 3. 6 is another age I remember the books being really, really helpful. My husband was having a VERY hard time with Evan not sitting still during dinner - and he was 6, so there's that answer for you! - until he read in the "Your Six-Year-Old" book that being antsy, standing while eating, needing to move, etc. was very "normal" for six-year-olds, even if they had previously sat still while eating. He needed that "official" outlook, not just "He is being himself."