The Myriad ... The Marathon ... Ah! The Posts!!

[Katherine]

[Bolded quotes you see below are from a/n ... in/famous 100+ thread. Commentary (mine) in regular unbolded type]

Trust that any parent that is drawn to radical unschooling knows that denying a 4 year old comfort would be cruel. And if they don’t they need more help than a few sentences mixed into a 100 post thread.

I think it is striking the personal growth that can be inspired (*is* inspired) by discussions on public forums. The fact that many parents don't know what actions deny a child comfort isn't mysterious to me. One help for such parents is available in the format of 100+ (or less) post threads. The cost is simply the time and attention to read. Otherwise free and in my opinion worth every bit of the time.

Hundreds of other parents that are just learning about unschooling could be reading this threat.

When you really look at this thread it is rather threatening to a mother that is desperate for compassionate support isn’t it? Freudian slip perhaps?


A slip which was clearly explained here:

"Thread," I bet you meant (not threat)--it was in another post too. Computer problems this week, right?

And here:

YesThread ! Sorry My keyboard is really almost unusable and my laptop is outof order. But Mostly is just me not re-reading what I wrote This is my son;s computer and I do not want to keep him away from his games.

One of the things that helps me in reading through long discussions when I'm fairly new to or haven't ever been very active in a forum/list is to assume that not knowing the people who frequently post might mean I won't fully grasp what's going on as the multiple posts fly up and down the screen. Just in the sheer number of inevitable nuances due to personal interactions.

When I first began reading on unschooling lists, the unfamiliarity of the concepts was enough mystery for me to deal with sans further mystification. I definitely felt the tone was harsh in those days. I went away, and came back, left for a while, and returned, and I mostly lurked for a rather longish bit. I guess I really must love a puzzle.

These days, now that I've had lots of time to let the endless discussion wash over me and percolate in my mind as *idea* separate from *post* or *person posting,* it's easy for me to understand the kindness that wasn't at first apparent. I see now that there was no harshness (and in a sense, there's no kindness), not personally. There's only the *perception* of harshness or kindness. Which is true? Maybe neither.

Does it matter? Maybe, maybe not.

What does matter to me is that the kindness that I began to feel ... to know ... is in the thinking imparted to me as I implement unschooling principles along with my family. We're here together now, living in a way I could not have imagined. It is so wonderful.

Everyone's experience of honesty and open discussion will vary, and so may our mileage vary on unschooling lists. All depending on our willingness and ability to grow and learn from those wordy strangers on the internet. Wordly on, dude!
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[Bea Mantovani]

When I first began reading on unschooling lists, the unfamiliarity of the concepts was enough mystery for me to deal with sans further mystification. I definitely felt the tone was harsh in those days. I went away, and came back, left for a while, and returned, and I mostly lurked for a rather longish bit. I guess I really must love a puzzle.

These days, now that I've had lots of time to let the endless discussion wash over me and percolate in my mind as *idea* separate from *post* or *person posting,* it's easy for me to understand the kindness that wasn't at first apparent. I see now that there was no harshness (and in a sense, there's no kindness), not personally.

Yes! That is my experience too!

[Sandra Dodd]

Here's the topic from which these ideas are springing.

-=- The only posts that have confused me are the ones where experienced unschoolers have taken words and phrases and given them a negative meaning, blown it way out of proportion, made rude and derogatory comments and refused to answer the questions.-=-

"Refused to answer the questions"? Sometimes the answer someone needs is to a question she was unable to formulate, about a topic she hadn't considered. When someone's kids are breaking holes in the walls of a rented home, the question isn't about drywall. It's about how the parents react to the children's actions. And if advice comes only from a family in which the kids are equally wild, it will be commiseration, not help. It would be "You're not alone" and "We don't know what to do, either," rather than "There are things that will help, but you-the-parent will need to change your own understanding and behaviors."

Parents have come to unschooling discussions and said "My child is lazy and..." and when others try to redefine what he's doing as not at all lazy, the mom might say "I don't think he's lazy." Hello.... Cut and paste can show that that mother just told countless strangers in public that her child is lazy. She thought it at least long enough to write it down and hit "send." And that wasn't a typo for curious or focussed. It was the word "lazy".

-=-Sandra’s comments about the county taking Diana’s children away and having her kicked out of her home and then today that woman that said she wanted to call child protective services.-=-

The last comment was by someone who's not even an unschooler, so I don't want it associated with mine. Local and regional governments all over the world can and do remove children from homes they consider to be unsuitable every single day of the year. Unschooling isn't a magic fairy godmother. If anything, unschoolers need to be MORE circumspect about some things because we're already doing something that baffles many government officials and pisses off some others. So don't dangle a red flag out the window for government agencies to see.

My husband owns the house he lived in when he was little. We lived there before we had children, and until we had three who were 5, 8 and 11, and moved to a bigger house. We still own that house. If a family lived there and the house was being damaged repeatedly, even if it was accidental, I would want them to move out. But this mom explained to us that it wasn't accidental damage. It was repeated and purposeful. There are laws against that. And when a family doesn't own a house, the owner has more say over what is done to walls than the parents do.

Unschooling isn't a shield. It's a decision to live in such a way that children learn all the time, are busy and happy and that the parents cultivate a relationship with them that enables all involved to learn and grow together. There are dozens of people who have figured unschooling out, have done it successfully for many years, who can write well enough to describe it usefully, and who are willing to volunteer their time to help others freely.

Then there are occasional drive-by posters who come by and try to stop them and shame them.

-=-I cannot imagine a life where every possible confusion is calculated and corrected just in case...-=-

A discussion about a particular situation held in light of a particular philosophy is not anyone's life. Life is huge! Going to an online forum to ask a question is not "a life."

-=-So far there has been an incredible amount of words, a little insight, a little helpful advice, but there has not been an answer to her specific question.-=-

And there were thousands of words of complaint about the way others were responding. The least helpful post of all are those people who have no answers to offer, but want to criticize those who actually did.

I'll link this from the other discussion, too. It's down so many layers of response that it's about maxed out there.

Links to previous discussions about some of the topics above:
http://sandradodd.com/doit
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
http://sandradodd.com/ifonly

Sandra

[Bea Mantovani]

I was wondering if maybe it would be a good idea to put a post up somewhere (in the "RUN announcement" forum maybe?) to explain the "culture" on the different forums a bit.
From the recent discussions it looks like people are confused because they think all of the forums are for support. I know the administrator(s) added a short description in front of each of the forums that state which one is for support and which one is not. I'm wondering if people read those though, as the most recent threads appear on the front page and it's easy to get to the discussion without seeing the forum description.
It seems like more and more people are joining who are not used to the Yahoo Groups "culture"... maybe there should be some advice somewhere to read for a few weeks on the forums first before posting, like is done on the front page of most of the radical unschooling Yahoo Groups?

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-They will freely and generously give you TONS of ideas about how to make your relationship with your child better.

-=-If that were true I wouldn’t have had anything that motivated me to post after 3 months of lurking. -=- (source)

Someone who reads for three months and has no good answers to give shouldn't fill the forum with long critiques of those who ARE offering suggestions.

This one seems addressed to me personally. It's great when these discussions are addressed to the group, to future readers, but this is someone on a rant and addressing me:

-=-When she asked you what else you would do after you grabbed their face and said No! you failed to respond and instead chose to just talk, maybe I should say teach her some more about her choice of words. I think she implied or flat out asked you personally what you would do three times and 100 posts later there is still no answer.-=-

The mother to whose original situation we were responding hadn't answered questions about the children's ages or the relationships among them. She would say "my children are..." and then talk about poking the dogs eyes and digging holes in the wall. The three weren't taking a vote and acting in unison. I've never stopped one of my children without knowing which one it was, and being aware of surrounding issues and the other pressures of that day or hour. I can't say what I would say, because I don't live from a script. It would depend on the situation. It seemed to me that this family had suddenly jumped into unschooling without understanding it and thought somehow that the parents' opinions were to carry no more weight than the children's, and that they were supposed to approve of everything the children said or did. That in itself seemed to be, possibly, the core of the problems.

I told personal stories (even of drywall damage), but what people who wanted to help needed that mom to share was which child was instigating and why. Their guesses offered LOTS of practical and detailed ideas of what to do. But those three children were not acting in unison, and the mom had (in her description to us) generalized them as a borglike group.

-=-Are you are saying that the way you treat your own children is different than the way you treat other children or their parents?-=-

Are you suggesting that anyone is obligated to treat you the same way they treat their own children? Marty just had his 20th birthday and we had a big party here. His jeep is in the shop. His dad offered to pay for a host of minor repairs all at once as a gift. Do you think we're cruel for not having parties for everyone on this forum and fixing all their cars?

The relationship between a parent and a child is what will make or break unschooling. I and many others have spent years helping other parents find ways to have better relationships with their children, freely, openly. It's not their relationship with me or any other stranger on the internet that will help them unschool. It's how they change to accommodate a new kind of posture and attitude toward their role as a parent and toward their children as people.

Those who are sure they can do that better should just do it and show the rest of us up. People only need to take the great advice and ignore the lackluster ideas.

Those who don't have better ideas would do better to continue to lurk than to jump in and try to control the discussion.

If someone knows a better way to say what needs to be said, then say it. Don't tell me to say it your way. YOU say it your way.

Sandra

[Katherine]

It seems like more and more people are joining who are not used to the Yahoo Groups "culture"... maybe there should be some advice somewhere to read for a few weeks on the forums first before posting, like is done on the front page of most of the radical unschooling Yahoo Groups?

I'm not sure that there's even the screening for joining RUN to make a Ning forum function the same way as a Yahoo one. Both have pros and cons.

I think human nature is the same either way. I do think it's really helpful to repeat seemingly endlessly (when these situations boil up over and over) what Sandra has written (and there are several key points she wrote so I'm not going to repeat them as she already posted them in this thread).

A forum/list premise is great like you say, Bea.... when people actually read it. I actually did read it when I joined and even so it was a while before I understood the point of it because, as far I can tell, it's all part of the change in perception that happens after you've soaked up the "culture."

That doesn't mean list introductions are lacking. They're good for forearming readers to read and listen, to please consider doing so while they're new readers, as opposed to posting whatever they will as soon as they join.
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[Katherine]

It's not their relationship with me or any other stranger on the internet that will help them unschool. It's how they change to accommodate a new kind of posture and attitude toward their role as a parent and toward their children as people.

Yes I agree. And all the complaints and all the commentary about online interactions (including this thread that I started for the purpose of clarifying more about it) won't put families back together again. That takes making changes for the better in families, which is naturally the prerogative of the parents in families.

It has taken me much longer than 3 months of reading to begin facilitating change in myself toward unschooling! Sometimes people just aren't ready for it and can't wrap their heads around certain things. I immediately saw the logic and much of the value in unschooling. But actually doing it was a whole 'nother story.
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[Sandra Dodd]

-=-Posting on a message board but not wanting advice is a bad combination.

-=-This is just exploring an idea and not addressing who the person is? Making a statement that another persons expressed wants or needs is "bad" is a radical unschooling discussion? -=-

The first statement was mine (I think; I know I'm not the only one who said something about people saying "I don't want advice" after they'd posted in a public forum). The second was someone else.

It wasn't about someone expressed wants or needs. It was about the reality of discussions of unschooling, which have existed for many, many years. These kinds of discussions are not helped at all by people saying "Here's what i do and it's not open for discussion" or anything like that. The purpose of these kinds of exchanges is to discuss ideas and to examine situations from an unschooling point of view.

Sandra

[JennyStar]

I just reread that entire thread! I saw a lot of wonderful replies, and as usual I'm left wondering which ones people are getting all upset about! I didn't see any posts that were inherently mean or untoward. There were a few newer posts that I wish I could've responded to but couldn't because there wasn't a "reply to this" button, but that's ok, maybe the thread needs to be left alone....

I guess it's all a matter of what frame of mind someone is coming from. I think people project things from their own experiences when they read things, and it can cause confusion and misinterpretations, especially if the place they are coming from is defensive in nature.

When I feel defensive about something, it's because it triggers something that needs to be examined. Those are the times that I don't post, and just read, so as to not convolute any thoughts out there with my defensiveness!