words, meanings, "semantics"

[Sandra Dodd]

"The reason several words can mean the same thing is because not everyone hears the same thing when a particular word is used."

I've heard it said that there are no words in English that mean the same thing--that if we don't use both of them for different purposes or nuances, we drop one.

The quote above is from another topic, and I just wanted to use it as a springboard to discuss the occasional charge of "just semantics." I've been told "that's just semantics" about the difference between teaching oneself and learning. I've been told "that's just semantics" about the difference between rules and principles. I've been told by people I know in person and know to be intelligent and verbal that principles and rules are the same thing.

When people tune instruments, they might both be playing an A, but one is slightly higher within the range of vibrations than the other, and the musicians know they're out of tune.

When an artist goes through his tubes of "yellow," there might be fifteen different shades, and he probably only calls one or two of them "yellow." I might not know the difference, but he will.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- I would not be happy if somebody told me that my kids were uneducated because uneducated usually implies that somebody is stupid or does not know anything.-=-

If it's about how you feel about what other people say to you, then that's not about your children. Maybe if you yourself were unschooled a little more so that you could see the value in learning that doesn't look like "education" but that creates a rich person full of ideas and information, you wouldn't be clinging to the hope that others will see your children as "educated."

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

-=- My kids are educated but they achieved it through learning.-=-

If you could come to prefer to think "My kids are always learning," you wouldn't need to have "educated" as a goal.

[Valerie]

I like always learning because it has a being in the now moment ring to it.

[Leticia]

Yes, me too. Most of life's most important statements are intuitive. You know they are true before you know why or how. They come from a deeper understanding that transcends evidence and proof and logic and reason and all those tools with which you try to deterimine whether something is true or not and whether it is important. Sometimes you know something is important just from the ring of it. It has the "ring of truth". Labels, rules, are like religion to me. too much dogma. Do it this way, no don't then you're not a true unschooler, it's this way not that and so on. Just find your way within not outside yourself, you know what works best for your children and you, it can be felt, just be quiet, you will hear the answer in your heart.

[Hope]

Well said Leticia. I often have to remind myself that I was led TO this lifestyle but that doesn't mean I have to be led BY it. Ultimately I have to trust my own instincts because if I don't then I'm not creating an environment where my kids will continue to trust theirs.

I understand that for point of clarity on an unschooling forum that word choice is important but I still feel it is less important than how we are carrying things out in our lives. Yes, an artist may see distinctions in the shades of yellow that others don't see but he/she doesn't necessarily have to know the names of all those colors to paint a beautiful picture. I am less interested in the labels people assign than the meanings behind those labels. Not everyone who comes here needs to be a writer, prolific at word choice in order to participate in meaniful discussions and at times getting hung up on word choice will make it easy to lose sight of the real issues being discussed.

Going back to the analogy of the artist- If I were learning to paint and the person helping me was constantly correcting me about the names of colors when I was asking about the use of color I would become frustrated and probably quit or find someone else to guide me. This doesn't mean that labels are NEVER important, just not ALWAYS important. I think as people travel their journey into unschooling the nuances in the language become more self apparant through repeated exposure to that vocabulary; this is the most natural, organic way that people learn vocabulary. JMHO

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-I understand that for point of clarity on an unschooling forum that word choice is important but I still feel it is less important than how we are carrying things out in our lives.-=-

Absolutely. But this forum is not anyone's life. This is where people come to discuss, in words, how unschooling works.

In discussing terminology such as "teaching" and "learning," that's not about labelling children. Please don't confuse the discussion of semantics with labels.

http://sandradodd.com/words/without.html
http://sandradodd.com/labels
http://sandradodd.com/lazy

Those are very different from this:
http://sandradodd.com/teaching

If I'm working on a mural with artists, they won't appreciate it if I'm careless or cavalier about colors. What people do at their own houses doesn't show. What is put on philosophical discussions shows for a long time.

[Hope]

Words ARE labels; not in the negative way that people label each other to put them in boxes but in the way that a tree is only a tree because we say it is- it would have leaves and roots whether we called it a tree or not. This is the way I was discussing the word label.

I completely understand the distinction between teaching and learning and feel it is an extremely important one. However, I still don't feel the need to point out to others, especially those new to unschooling, that they are using the wrong word when they ask questions about "teaching" their children if the rest of their discussion indicates that they are in fact talking about "facilitating". In my own posts I will use what I feel to be the correct label as a way to clarify and hopefully help people learn the differences organically. If there is a thread, such as this one, that is SPECIFICALLY about words then it is a good time to discuss these things. However in a thread where someone is asking for help and ideas I try to focus on the essence of the discussion, if I'm not sure because of misused words I may ask for clarification but only for the sake of giving my best response, not to chastize people for using the wrong word.

Of course I'm not implying that anyone in this discussion does that- heck, I'm new here and this is the first discussion I've taken part in so I don't know any of you that well! :) On other boards I belong to I've seen this happen though and I don't like it AT ALL. I think we all come here for support and putting people in their place about word usage isn't supportive. Again, JMHO

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-I think we all come here for support and putting people in their place about word usage isn't supportive. Again, JMHO-=-

It's not "putting people in their place" to talk about what will help them unschool better. It's helping them unschool better.

On the page where discussion forums live on this site (which is vast and confusing, I know) it says this:

Radical Unschooling Philosophy Discussions
this is a place to discuss RU philosophy. THIS IS NOT A SUPPORT FORUM!!

What many people mean when they say "support" is this sort of stuff:
http://sandradodd.com/support

[Hope]

But there is more to this board than the philosopy forum and I haven't seen anywhere that we were only talking about this specific part of the board. As I said in my PP, in threads such as this one it is an appropriate discussion while in other places it may not be.

[Monica Manzano]

Pushing the 'like' button on this theme. Guess I'm spending way too much time on facebook. It's all pure silliness. When I realize I don't have much to say, or can not put it into words I press the 'like' button.
I've caught flak from 2 old groups of mine for suposedly being too 'criptic'. I felt hurt at the time and just didn't bother going back to them. So nowadays it works best for me to write how I feel on xyz topic rather than to attempt to 'flesh' the topic out. Perhaps I'm admitting a 'learning curve'. If I don't know what or how to write in this stream of conscious style, then perhaps it best to just limit my words and say very little. But certainly pass on that I want to follow that thread.

[Meredith]

Hope said:

Going back to the analogy of the artist- If I were learning to paint and the person helping me was constantly correcting me about the names of colors when I was asking about the use of color I would become frustrated and probably quit or find someone else to guide me.

Whereas I would probably be just the opposite, fussing over every name for every color and wondering about the difference between azure and cerulean.

I didn't "feel" or "intuit" my way to unschooling (as Leticia mentions in another post) I analyzed and argued every step of the way. I didn't know what respect or freedom or learning meant, anymore, and had to dig my way down through layers of meaning, and then put those meanings into context. All that analysis helped me figure out what my deeper principles were - and maybe that's what Leticia meant by intuition. It could well be a more intuitive process for some people. For me, I'd start to feel comfortable with something I thought was a principle, respect, for instance, but then get bogged down in the practice of it. Its respectful to make children do things for their own good, right? Oops. So then I'd dig deeper, pull the word and the ideas it represented apart and find out what other ideas, what other words, helped me have a better relationship with my kids. I didn't know, in any kind of instinctive way, how to be kind and joyful. I had to think about it and learn and practice, and having a framework of words was helpful - like thinking about primary colors vs secondary and more complex colors.

If pulling apart words frustrates you, then stay away from those discussions! There are other ways to discuss how to bring more joy and positivity into your life.

[Robin B.]

I completely understand the distinction between teaching and learning and feel it is an extremely important one. However, I still don't feel the need to point out to others, especially those new to unschooling, that they are using the wrong word when they ask questions about "teaching" their children if the rest of their discussion indicates that they are in fact talking about "facilitating".

*****************

I think there's a shift made by a parent when she/he realizes that "learning" is done by the child and is an entirely different thing from "teaching." It's a very important shift to make when you are beginning to unschool. It requires thinking about how learning really takes place and by whom.

If this is pointed out at the outset of someone's unschooling (not in terms of the use of the term necessarily, but to *see* the process in a different way) by people who have experienced this shift, a parent can move along earlier to "facilitating."

[Valerie]

Pushing the "like" button for Leticia's post.

Much of this reminds me of the cave allegory, which I've only just recently been introduced to.

I've often been careless, cavalier, cryptic and cautious. That's quite a combination.

I've quit a discussion before but when it came to unschooling the pull was stronger than any word or combinations thereof. A helping hand and a point in the right direction has been most appreciated along the way...the rest has been up to me.