the 4th question

[Sylvia Toyama]

In a recent exchange here someone mentioned that folks new to The Work sometimes find the 4th question "who would you be without this thought?" difficult. I'm one of these folks.

While I find the first three questions very helpful in finding my real motivations and feelings and moving from blame to change, I don't find the 4th helpful at all. In fact, it often undoes progress because the very idea behind it angers me.

I wonder, how do others perceive the 4th question of the process?

[greenlee]

Sylvia, I experience a weird thing with the fourth question. It often depends on how painful the story is that I'm working through.

When I ask myself who I would be ...how would I feel without the thought, I find that every single time I realize I would be at peace, happy, relaxed, ....obviously without believing the painful thought I would be all of those things and more.

But, sometimes I do move into anger for different reasons. Sometimes I feel angry that I even had the thought to begin with, sometimes angry because I feel a loss of control or power that my thoughts just come upon me unbidden, and sometimes angry because I just get frustrated that I'm so 'effed' up that I keep needing to do the work constantly. LOL

But, then I realize I've gotten out of the process. I've moved off into more stories & thoughts and I'm not really IN the work anymore. I am spinning my wheels.

So, I return to the questions and just answer them. That's all it is. Who would I be if I didn't believe the particular thought? Peaceful. Then I feel relief, relief that I do not HAVE to believe that painful thought anymore. It's up to me. I can't stop the thought (and i'm learning how to be ok with that) but I can find out if it's actually true for me or not.

As I get more and more experienced with doing the work, I am beginning to feel like I make better decisions for myself when I'm peaceful. Much better. Realizing I don't have to believe every freakin thought that pops into my head frees me to do good things for myself. :)

Is your anger like this or is it different?

[Phoenix]

I really like this question. I think the idea is to visualize yourself going through your life without the stressful thought you are working on. Sometimes for emphasis Katie will say instead "What if you were put on this earth without the ability to believe that?"

An answer might be "Without the thought _______ I would be much happier and free. I would be kinder to other people without the thought. I would feel more comfortable just being myself."

I think question 4 is helpful in making the work applicable to your daily activities.

Love,
Phoenix

[Phoenix]

I have never seen a wild thing feel sorry for itself. A little bird will fall dead, frozen from a bough, without ever having felt sorry for itself. -TH Lawrence

Who would I be if I were put on this earth without the ability to feel sorry for myself?

[Sylvia Toyama]

Thank you for your thoughts on it.

My anger is often along the lines of "Without this thought, I'd be someone who doesn't get what she wants and is taken advantage of by others." Pretty much every time, I'm glad to not be angry, anxious, frustrated and so on, but if all I do is make my own peace, without asking anyone else to do anything for me (because my unhappiness isn't their fault) my need still goes unmet.

So, for me the answer to question 4 is often -- I'd be the person whose needs never get met. Sure, I could find a way to be happy with less than everything I want, but why should I settle for that?

[greenlee]

Well, my thoughts on that would be that it's your responsibility to give yourself what you want. It's your responsiility to act in your own integrity to the extent that you are doing what you want to do, and what feels right to you. If you have a need, and you ask someone to fill it for you, you must respect that they have their own ideas about what's right, and their own capabilities to "fill" your need. If they cannot fill it, or choose not to, it comes back to you to either ask someone else to do it, or to do it yourself. I do not think we can expect others to ever fill needs for us - we can ask them for things, and if they give it to us it is a gift. It took me a long time to come to this. I lived a life where I thought those around me were supposed to meet my needs and do what I want.

Now, that being said, if I was in a relationship where there were staples that I wanted - personal preferences that were "bottom line" things...such as monogamy, not physically hitting me or whatever matters to me, and the other person was not able to fulfill that need of mine, I would leave the relationship.

With my children it is different. I would not "leave" those relationships, but I would ask for what I want. This is an ongoing issue I work through when it comes to housework by the way. :)

I think when it comes to question #4 your answer of 'I'd be the person whose needs never get met' is moving into further beliefs rather than just a simple answer to the question.

Thanks for bringing this up Sylvia! It's so good to explore it!

[Phoenix]

I do not wish to sound like a parrot for Katie, but I agree with her here. "Needs" are things you absolutely can't live without. Oxygen is a good example of a need. And if you are alive and healthy you are by definition getting what you need.

Your needs will not be met? Is that true?

[Sylvia Toyama]

And the answers become circular.

An example -- I need more than oxygen. Food is good. A place to live is good. Time with the man I married is good. Some may consider them simply wants. In my book they are needs. More than that -- I have as much right as anyone else to have them.

[Jennifer Ironstone]

Oh, I just love the feedback you've received here, Sylvia! Such wisdom! I can relate to so much of what you shared, Greenlee, and I love your responses too, Phoenix.

Sylvia . . what do you get for holding onto this story that you describe above? That you have as much right as anyone else to have these needs? (And I'm not saying that you don't.)

[Jennifer Ironstone]

Oh . . I want to mention also that the fourth question is commonly the most challenging for beginners to The Work because most people have never attempted to think that way before. So it is like a muscle being exercised for the first time and needing to be strengthened before it can be very powerful. It is quite a meditative aspect of The Work and simply asks us to get creative with our imagination.

Sylvia, from what you wrote it appears that you may be correlating the fourth question with denial of the original thought. Make no mistake -- who would you be without that thought is meant to ask -- literally -- who would you be without that thought . . . and NOT who would you be with that thought belittled and bottled up deep inside.

[greenlee]

Jennifer, I think it is common for people to resist answering just the fourth question, without moving into further justifications for the original thought they're working on. I remember feeling a lot more resisitance to it when I was first doing the work. :) And sometimes even now....when I have a story or belief that I want to cling to. :) I love what you wrote.

Sylvia, I wanted to share with you that I don't usually find it helpful to consider any difference between wants and needs in myself. I know that Phoenix says that Katie explains what she sees is the difference between wants and needs, but I do not find it helpful at all.

For me I want what I want. To try to analyze this seems a bit like semantics to me. They're just words to me when what I'm feeling is: I WANT THIS!!! :)
.....I do not feel ashamed of what I want and I do not try to play it down in some kind of effort to be 'enlightened' or anything. Hey, I want it!

But, when what I want (and not getting it) feels painful to me, it's time to inquire into that. I look for the statements & beliefs around it all and do the work on those. It may not change what I want (why would i want to change that anyway?) but if there is pain or frustration associated with it all I can straighten that out. Then I feel more free to go after what I want, or brainstorm some ways to get it.

[Sylvia Toyama]

Sylvia, from what you wrote it appears that you may be correlating the fourth question with denial of the original thought. Make no mistake -- who would you be without that thought is meant to ask -- literally -- who would you be without that thought . . . and NOT who would you be with that thought belittled and bottled up deep inside.

*****
Without the thought that I am unhappy at my husband being gone so much, I'd be someone who didn't care when or if my husband came home, and I'm simply not willing to be that person.

[Sylvia Toyama]

But, when what I want (and not getting it) feels painful to me, it's time to inquire into that. I look for the statements & beliefs around it all and do the work on those. It may not change what I want (why would i want to change that anyway?) but if there is pain or frustration associated with it all I can straighten that out. Then I feel more free to go after what I want, or brainstorm some ways to get it.

*****
yes, I can move away from the frustration and pain, for a time at least. Still, tho, I'm the person whose husband isn't home as much as is good for our family.

I'd love to brainstorm a way for him to be home, but in this economy that would mean being jobless, with the mortgage and other bills unpaid and no way to feed our children. Not an acceptable choice.

My difficulty with being at peace with the way things are is that, in my experience, when I truly make peace with the way things are they don't change. If I don't kickstart something, I'll still be right here 6 months from now, a year from now. Months and years of my life lived in a way that doesn't meet my needs and that I'll never get back.

And then I stray into the unfairness of it all, which becomes way too big to sit with. I do my best to just stay busy enough I don't have room in my head to think about it.