the 4th question

[Sylvia Toyama]

In a recent exchange here someone mentioned that folks new to The Work sometimes find the 4th question "who would you be without this thought?" difficult. I'm one of these folks.

While I find the first three questions very helpful in finding my real motivations and feelings and moving from blame to change, I don't find the 4th helpful at all. In fact, it often undoes progress because the very idea behind it angers me.

I wonder, how do others perceive the 4th question of the process?

[Jennifer Ironstone]

Greenlee, I can really see what you're saying. The thing is, when I look at your outline above and sit with it for myself, I see that it is who I am without my story. For Sylvia, it may just not be relevant yet, simply because it is not her experience until it is. I love your point, too, Phoenix, and I can really see that Sylvia IS believing that these are her needs right now. And, Sylvia, it is fine of course to believe whatever you believe. The thing to get still with and ask yourself is -- is it working for you? And feel free to not explain to us what you find there because it isn't for us to know - it is yours.


Sylvia, thank you for responding to my questions. From what you're describing, I am hearing that, when you believe that you want reality to be different than it is right now - than it's possible for it to be right now (according to you) - it hurts. You said that it's very sad for you. And, unquestioned, the way you're living your life out of that belief is that you're begrudgingly coping. You distract yourself with things you used to love but now cling to out of anxiety for the purpose of avoiding pain. What other addictions/distractions/avoidance tactics do you turn to when you believe these painful thoughts, Sylvia? Then, according to you, you "push" people and situations and it is a stressful experience, I hear from you. You stress out. These insights that you've found are so golden though because they are the medicine of self-awareness. When we don't stop to notice them, we just continue to live our lives out of our painful thoughts as they build upon one another into second, third, and fourth (and so-on) generation thoughts, desperately trying to avoid what we innocently don't know what else to do with. That is the way of it . . . until we inquire.

What I have found is that the questions of The Work allow me to show myself the way home to peace. You don't have to know what to do. You can simply answer the questions (or not) and see where your own wisdom brings you, and if you like what you find, you can live that truth instead of the original one.


So, Sylvia, if this experience were your or your children's only path to god (the god of your understanding) -- would you take it? ♥

[Sylvia Toyama]

It's not perfect. My 12yo has major trouble sleeping with his Dad gone most nights, both boys miss their Dad terribly, I never get enough rest or sleep (see non-sleeping 12yo above).

[Sylvia Toyama]

So, Sylvia, if this experience were your or your children's only path to god (the god of your understanding) -- would you take it? ♥

Nope. No God worthy of my love would treat my children this way. Period.

[Sylvia Toyama]

Okay, so thinking about this with a clearer head -- after a bit of dinner and some time sitting down (we went on a spectacular hike in the mountains today) I do see good in this situation.

It's not perfect, but I have grown and stretched and learned lots about myself. Really, I am much more aware of who I am and what I'm capable of; I'm better at setting and keeping to my boundaries; and we've had some wonderful experiences of needs being met in unexpected ways.

That said, while it is reality and I know I am most at peace when I don't resist this reality, it's not ideal. Most days, it's just enough to get by. I do enjoy my knitting and time with my kids and friends, but then the busy part of my day ends and here I am, without my best friend at the end the day. I'm the only one who can stay up with the 12yo, the only one who can drive anyone anywhere, I was the only adult one here when our house was robbed last year. I'm tired and I need this to change for the better. I want our old life back.

My exhaustion isn't a belief, it's a reality. The time our kids miss with their Dad isn't a belief, it's a reality. We are all missing moments that will NEVER come around again. The kind of moments we used to get every day. This is not the life I wanted for my children. They deserve better and if I don't demand better, I've failed them.

[Jennifer Ironstone]

Sylvia, I am just loving reading your turnarounds! How wonderful that you can find what is good about this situation. Can you relate a little more to the story Greenlee described of your life as it is right now without this stressful story?

[Sylvia Toyama]

Can you relate a little more to the story Greenlee described of your life as it is right now without this stressful story?

******
Do you mean this story?

that everything about your situation seems perfect and beautiful, other than your own thinking. Phoenix reminded me that in fact you ARE living with it, and you really are ok. You're going out, playing with the boys, knitting, having fun, seeing beloved friends, reading, loving your husband....and you will have a wonderful family trip this summer, followed by some efforts at a possible job change. That sounds like a beautiful life.

*****

I don't think 'everything' in my situation is beautiful or perfect. Our 12yo isn't getting enough sleep, and has erratic mood swings as a result, with an increase in OC behaviors and rituals (his coping mechanism). I don't have enough energy to keep up with our very athletic and active 8yo, because I can't go to bed until the 12yo has exhausted himself to sleep with anxiety (usually near 2 am, while the 8yo wakes at 7am). What's beautiful and perfect about those circumstances?

And the wonderful family trip is 12 days with the in-laws who, tho they mean well, pick apart every tiny difference between our children and their academically advanced mainstream great-nieces and nephews. It will be 12 days where I spend most of my time explaining pretty much every aspect of our lifestyle and choices -- yet again.

The trip is a gift my husband and I are giving to our children and his parents, who all want very much to see each other in Hawaii (where the grands live). Neither of us really expect to enjoy it for ourselves, tho it will be nice to show our youngest around Hawaii (he was too young to remember his last visit). We'd much prefer to stay home, but the grands got the kid all excited about visiting and we'd be breaking too many heart if we canceled the trip.

*****
Less stressful -- let's see..... fresh papayas for breakfast, watching cardinals in the hedge (we don't have them in the desert), watching the kids enjoy time with their grandparents, an absence of cable TV (for me -- the kids will miss it a LOT).

I have already made the situation at home with dh gone about as stress-free as I can. With the arrival of warmer weather and longer days we do get more time with friends, and more fresh air. I've set some boundaries and cleared a few extraneous responsibilities off my plate, so I'm more available for time with the kids and even some personal downtime. Of course, right now, my personal downtime is spent missing dh, but I'm trying to find other things to fill my time.

Lack of sleep, tho, is an ongoing situation and one for which I simply don't have a remedy. The 12yo will stay up later than us alone, only when Dad is home, so if dh were here every night there would be no need for me to be up until 2am, and I'd get more sleep. I do get more sleep most nights when dh is here, but that really only account for 3 nights at most, tho usually dh needs to leave quite early one morning (7am-ish). It skews everything for us because when we're all under-slept, there are more arguments, more impatience on my part, etc.

[Phoenix]

Sylvia,
I picked up on something in your words. Earlier you said ...

My anger is often along the lines of "Without this thought, I'd be someone who doesn't get what she wants and is taken advantage of by others." Pretty much every time, I'm glad to not be angry, anxious, frustrated and so on, but if all I do is make my own peace, without asking anyone else to do anything for me (because my unhappiness isn't their fault) my need still goes unmet.

I am hearing that you beleive having your own "peace" means that you must make compromises or that you will remain passive. I know we have talked about this a lot, but I wanted to share one more thing.

I want to improve the world for my children and change my life for the better. If I live fully in the present, won't I become passive?

Josh: Not at all. Let's imagine that suddenly there was a fire in this building. Instantly, you spontaneously leap up, move quickly, help people get away from the flames, maybe even do something courageous. Your body-mind reacts in thousands of way that don't require thinking. In fact, it has an intelligence that is beyond what you can consciously know. Becoming consumed with thoughts like "This shouldn't be happening" or "Why me?" can significantly impair your response.

When you are present to life as it is showing up now, you are intimately engaged with the people and world around you. There is no gap. This is the opposite of passivity. You are available and actively contributing in ways you may not even realize yet.


This is from http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Buddhism/2004/01/No-Philosophy-Requ...

[Jennifer Ironstone]

Hi Sylvia.

I notice that there are a few stories going on all at once here and I am finding it a bit overwhelming, myself. Also, if you do want to do The Work on what is causing you stress, it is a one-belief-at-a-time process -- precisely because the mind simply loves to flit and flutter all over the place . . spinning . . not really answering to itself . . and never really getting very still with exactly what is causing its suffering. That is why The Work is referred to as meditation.


Anyway, I would love to do The Work with you if you're wanting to move forward with that and I also completely respect it if you need to just stay present with your experience, too.

Let me know. I am here. ♥

[Sylvia Toyama]

I'm beginning to see that working with one issue alone -- independent of the others swirling around it -- doesn't speak to me as well. I'm more a big picture person, and taking one tiny piece at a time feels very much like I'm ignoring the bulk of things.

I recently began reading Care of the Soul, by Thomas Moore and I'm finding that right now, being present with how I am really feeling -- instead of trying to dismiss it as a belief-- is helpful . Moore's concept that care is ongoing speaks to me in a way The Work just doesn't right now. I lost too many years of my life denying who I inherently am and discovering the many ways my story has elevated me was an important path of progress for me. My story is where all the learning happened -- it is my journey. I'm not willing to now discard that story and leave my identity behind, which is very much how the 4th question feels to me.

Thank you, tho, for all the dialogue -- it's helped me to explore my feelings.

[Jennifer Ironstone]

Hi Sylvia.

I am glad that this discussion has helped you to explore your feelings. That is so important. I just wrote something on another forum that I believe is relevant to our discussion of the fourth question and the difficult emotions it can bring up. I'd like to share it here, too:


My marriage to my ex husband is what first brought me to The Work back in 2000. It actually took me several years to open up to The Work and to no longer see it as dismissive. It is ironic to me now to look back at my view of it as dismissive, because I see where my perception of The Work itself was a projection (as it is now, too), like everything always is. I saw it as dismissive because, back in those days, I was in the deeply-ingrained habit of doubting my own perceptions and judgments. I also tended to minimize my own concerns about the marriage and to attempt to sweep them under the rug by distracting myself and putting on a happy face when it wasn't authentic. I was also telling myself things such as "you're overreacting". It took years of very strong anger for me just to feel clear and set in my story, to feel like I even knew my own feelings and could articulate them and to really, fiercely believe ME.

So when I finally had the story all fleshed-out, I found that I needed to stew in it for a couple of more years. I did The Work on it but my answers never really pierced me very deeply, and I see now that it is because I still just wasn't ready. I really needed to sit in my defense, my justification, my rightness. It was so emotionally, mentally and spiritually nourishing and validating for me to do so during that period. It was only after a long time of that that I came to a place where, suddenly, mind grew quiet. It was very quiet and still, and I woke up one day inquiring to myself about what I wanted to do with it all. It was beginning to feel like the story had served its purpose and so I began to open up to what might be on the other side of the story . . . who I would be without that story. Who am I without my story? And that is where I still sit, now. Have you ever heard Katie say that sometimes we can sit in (be with) one question for years?


This is a common experience. It is exactly why Katie is often heard asking people, very gently, if they want to know the truth or do they need to be right. She, too, seems to really understand people's strong need to live their truth in each moment of their lives. And it is what it is. Until it isn't. But it's always, always about living in our own, genuine experience. She calls this integrity . . and I agree with her.


In peace,
Jennifer